sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

JAPAB you are annoying really

& JAPAB you are annoying really. You are completely ignoring all the stories from all of the women who have told stories about being assaulted etc when they were young, to keep banging on a point about well some women wear clothes to show their bodies off (well sure, and some their faces, and some their hair, and etc) and this somehow means that it was really awful of your friend to be tricked by an underage girl into liking her legs.

Your whole argument is incoherent. What I am hearing is that you think that women and girls who dress in a certain way may be trying to indicate that they are "up for it" and due to this they shouldn't be surprised when men approach them. Is that what you are trying to say? Because you're really going round the houses about it.

lass I hope it wasn't me who upset you? I have expressed my lack of interest in clothefashion, and lack of feminine clothes. I did not mean to imply that femininity and fashion were 'airheaded' in anyway. Whilst, I find it tedious, I 100% recognise that other people enjoy clothes. My mum and my dd are case in point

I rant similar to you. The term TOMBOY makes me RAGE. It conjure a girl in jeans doing 'boy thing'. Because 'girly girls' couldn't possibly play football or climb trees etc....No, you have to be some kind of boy to do that

WTF Lass?

"You know what I would like? If everyone would just mind their own business about other people's clothes choices.

Can I start with feminists who sneer at feminine clothes? Or think it's some sort badge of honour to be unfeminine which shows how enlightened they are compared to air heads like me who "perform femininity "."

The feminists on this thread have spent the best part of 2 days defending the right of women and girls to wear whatever the fuck they like, including short skirts, heels, and short shorts.

So where exactly have you got that from? It's like being thrown into a parallel universe, launching an incredibly strong attack against feminists for saying the exact opposite to what they have been saying.

That's just really weird.

JAPAB the example you raised was of a 14yo child who was wearing a short skirt, and your friend made some salacious comments about her legs. His response was that she shouldn't be dressed like that, rather than to think maybe he shouldn't go around making salacious comments about females if he isn't bloody sure they are women rather than children, or even better, not make salacious comments about passers-by so much, in general.

You seem to be justifying her response by saying that some women dress up in order to look more attractive. I'm really not sure what that has to do with your example.

It's also interesting that you keep bringing this back to assumptions a male observer might make. eg "Of course this does not mean that the woman (or man) choosing what to wear or how to alter about their appearance when going clubbing say, necessarily has the motive of attracting others to them, or "inviting" attention. Surely some do though, and then it is part of the "process"." The majority of women will only want attention from certain men, not from all and sundry. And the type of attention they want will be of the less leery, lecherous, won't leave you alone variety.

Women on this thread are telling you this, that they do not usually select clothes to "send messages" to all, and and sundry men they pass. To deliberately "invite attention" from whoever might be passing. And 14 year old girls even less so. 14 year old girls are horrified when they get "attention" from random men. They do not like it. And they are most certainly not, when they put a short skirt on, thinking "wow the skanky old men on the high street are going to love this! Some of them might even make dirty comments to me! Great! And even, most will not even be thinking about boys their own age when they put a skirt on. They will be thinking things like "it's hot, I'll wear my new skirt, it goes well with that eyeshadow" and maybe "I wonder if my friends will think it looks good".

It is a certain type of mindset that insists that women and girls must be trying to send all these messages (of availability) to all and sundry men, when women and girls themselves say No I'm Not, Now Stop That and Fuck Off.

Where I live it's very hot at the moment (high 30s) and the teenagers are generally wearing shorts and relatively skimpy tops because they are cooler. Many boys are just wearing shorts. Some men are also just wearing shorts, but I don't believe I've seen anyone over the age of about 25 wearing short shorts or very short skirts. The girls are not copying adults, and they are not looking to be sexually alluring, just wearing clothes for hot weather that are currently in fashion.

Now personally I would like it if there was a range of lengths of shorts for both boys and girls, but unfortunately board shorts for guys and short shorts for girls are in. dd and I spent a long time looking for longer shorts and found two or three that had an extra couple of inches. She got grief at school for not being fashionable. There is no way she would have worn the boys boarding shorts, they are very obviously not designed for girls and why should she have to take the grief? She has a couple of summer dresses, but they are also very short as she is almost six foot. Should I tell her she has to wear leggings all summer?

Plus she has lovely long athletic legs, I don't really get why she should have to hide them away. They are just legs!

I'd rather promote gender neutral clothing that emphasises practicality for weather and playtime.

And that's where we part company. Because "gender neutral" really means traditional boys' clothes doesn't it? Heaven forfend a girl might want to wear a dress.

I have always had a strong preference for feminine clothes. I hated trousers/jeans , still do. Wearing a skirt or a dress did not hinder me growing up on a farm, climbing trees (until that got boring ) or cycling 3 miles to school or even occasionally riding our pony. It's so long ago I can't remember what I wore on my feet but will undoubtedly have been girly (I'd never have worn "ugly shoes")

There now follows a rant which is not related to chldren's clothes but attitudes to clothes generally

You know what I would like? If everyone would just mind their own business about other people's clothes choices.

Can I start with feminists who sneer at feminine clothes? Or think it's some sort badge of honour to be unfeminine which shows how enlightened they are compared to air heads like me who "perform femininity ".

For example there are comments in another thread lamenting the fact "women's lab coats" exist. They exist because (a) the men's version has longer sleeves than the woman's and (b) men generally have less bottom and hips. And (c) because presumably women want and buy them. How dare they.

For example many years'ago DP and I were both chest size 34. I borrowed a white shirt and a skinny tie from him to wear with a severe black tailored skirt suit. The shirt didn't fit. It was OK in the chest, too wide at the collar and shoulders and too narrow over my hips. The tie was too long. Because women's bodies and men's bodies are not the same shape. It is not patriarchal oppression to recognise this.

And on shoes, I am so fed up with feminists telling me my favoured style of shoe is impractical. OK I get the message you don't like kitten heels and ballet flats. Personally I have no difficulty walking in either style. In fact the most uncomfortable shoes I've ever had by a country mile were a pair of Doc Martens.

Oh and a well meant compliment about what someone is wearing is not an insult or sexual harassment.

Moving on- there is nothing wrong in choosing clothes which you think make you more attractive.

Whether you are choosing them for your own inner confidence or because you think they will make you more attractive to a potential partner or a mix of each. Both just fine.

What is not fine is (a) men who assume it means the wearer is up for it with anyone and that it is an open invitation or that it's fine to make lewd or persistent or degrading or demeaning remarks to the wearer or (b) women who assume it means the wearer is up for it with anyone and that it is an open invitation.

Oh and anyone in groups (a) or (b) I can't begin to tell you how little I will value your opinion if you describe any woman as "dressed like a slut" (hint even less than I wil value the opinion of anyone telling me I'm performing feminity)

And finally for any one who thinks women need to dress modestly else what will men think of them? Bollocks.

I admit I'm judgemental about appearance. I admit I look at people at think judgemental thoughts about what they are wearing. (I don't mind sartorial disasters, it's more the irredeemably boring choices that get to me) But I keep these thoughts to myself. I don't tell anyone, I certainly don't tell the person concerned and it has no bearing on how I interact with that person.

None of you on here can police my thoughts . According to poster Mama men have lustful thoughts if they see a woman in skimpy clothes. I don't know if they do but we can't police their thoughts either. But what we can all do is simply accept that what another person is wearing is none of our business.

Anyway I feel much better after that.

I think t-shirts like that are very different to a short skirt, or a belly top. And they are very wrong; they have a sexual message, written on them

I know this is kind of indirect to the discussion and it's one of the bees in my bonnet ... but, when I hear somebody using sexualised language about a child or her clothing, I tend to think that person may have been sexually abused as a child. The majority (not all by any means) of abusers persuade themselves and each other that their child victims are willing participants. Wilfully misreading 'signals' and using inappropriate language are part of the self-justification package. An abused child, who's been told she was inviting the abuse, will often internalise that message even if she later realises she was being used.

Rather than trying to stamp out certain kinds of clothing, I'd like to see the whole "asking for it" lexicon stamped out. A child in PVC shorts is just a child in an item of clothing. The language is the thing that changes the meaning.

But is the only answer to the burqa to promote clothing that copies adult's sexually revealing clothing, and then to say well we just don't want those reasons to be read in? When you have tshirts with 'little tease' and 'sex kitten' on them?

I'd rather promote gender neutral clothing that emphasises practicality for weather and playtime.

I wonder if in some part these problems stem from where certain clothing has become fetishised (is this the word) in porn/adult entertainment?

Though this is no excuse for mens behavior and they should just not be pervs.

tech but the reasons being cited on this thread, for girls not wearing short skirts etc are the exact reasons for the burqa

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51
"TBH the way women "invite" sexual partners is generally by looking at them in the eye, and smiling. And responding positively when they engage in conversation with them. Leaning in, touching their arm, that sort of thing. Some more forward women might even approach a man they like the look of if they've had a bit -of-- dutch courage.

The clothes are irrelevant to this process also."

In the first case where it is the man who approaches the woman, the clothes she is wearing may have had a hand in this, making him notice or find her more appealing in some way. Not always but sometimes.

Of course this does not mean that the woman (or man) choosing what to wear or how to alter about their appearance when going clubbing say, necessarily has the motive of attracting others to them, or "inviting" attention. Surely some do though, and then it is part of the "process".

""TBH the way women "invite" sexual partners is generally by looking at them in the eye, and smiling. And responding positively when they engage in conversation with them. Leaning in, touching their arm, that sort of thing. Some more forward women might even approach a man they like the look of if they've had a bit -of-- dutch courage.

The clothes are irrelevant to this process also."

Clothes can make someone look more or less physically attractive, by enhancing or muting certain things. The level of one's physically attractive appearance can can help in such matters as increasing people's interest."

In the context of what I said, your response only makes sense if it means that the man should be wearing something that shows off his physical attributes, if he wants to maximise his chances of receiving interest from a woman.

Note the interest here is a look and a smile. An attempt to engage them in conversation might be appropriate in some circumstances, not usually on the street, except when the approaching party is pretty damn sure of mutual interest.

The interest being talked about on this thread is whistling, shouting, groping, following, wanking at, and so on and so forth. Towards children.

So in summary. What normal people do to be normal, ie trying to chat up an adult who looks interested (or at least not disinterested) in an appropriate setting, and leaving them alone if they ask you to = fine, really.

Following a 10yo down the street telling her you want a blow job, and not going away when she looks worried and distressed, and then when anyone asks saying "I thought she was older than that mate she's well tall and look at her legs" = not fine.

It never ceases to amaze me that so many men (and it is invariably men) claim to have zero ability to gauge the age of other people to the extent of not being able to differentiate between a 10 yo and a 25 yo, and zero ability to read quite standard human cues which mean you're making me uncomfortable, go away. And are yet strangely more than able to function in all other fields of human contact, in the workplace for example.

It's interesting isn't it. Almost as if they have a "blind spot" when it comes to interacting with females they want to fuck. Suddenly they can't be expected to understand quite normal standard things because they are blinded by a short skirt (or a medium skirt, or some long hair, or some big breasts, & so on). Even more interestingly, many of these men feel moved to interact with females that they don't want to fuck as well. And insult them. And even weirder, when a female from the first group has the courage to tell them to fuck off, they swiftly move her from group A to group B, seamlessly, and realise that they "don't think she's all that anyway". Funny, isn't it.

Then I'm sorry for being so touchy.

Islam... another religion/ culture with a whole boatload of meanings around dress. I don't think you are ever going to simply strip cultural meaning out of dress entirely, we are a cultural species which looks for meaning and social cues in everything. The question would then become what values do you want to promote, and how.

Answers on postcards please, so my brain doesn't explode.

I wasn't intending to be toady or mean. I thought I was being funny

I do live in Britain. The area I live has a very high Muslim population and a lot of men in frocks, albeit not short ones

The culture dh is from, the men are as likely to have short as long skirts depending on activity. Women always long skirts

'This one', I should add, being Britain, since I am british and in Britain. It was just a thought.

Ignoring the obvious goads, have you considered, marmalade, that since you live in a different culture it might be a different culture, with different values and rationales, requiring different solutions? Or are you thinking of this one?

You're sliding back to the vitriol again I see. I am not, now or ever, trying to make excuses for men. I would like to see our culture become less gender-stereotyped, less sexualised and less driven by the pursuit of power and domination, more equal in all matters. I don't see how promoting impractical clothing emphasising gender divides (what's wrong with netball shorts?), designed specifically for sexual appeal, or copying those styles in youngsters, will help in that aim. Anyway I have more things to think about, thank you (I think: I'm tired now).

tech have you considered Islam as your spiritual home? Flesh of girls and women suitably covered and men in frocks...win win

"TBH the way women "invite" sexual partners is generally by looking at them in the eye, and smiling. And responding positively when they engage in conversation with them. Leaning in, touching their arm, that sort of thing. Some more forward women might even approach a man they like the look of if they've had a bit -of-- dutch courage.

The clothes are irrelevant to this process also."

Clothes can make someone look more or less physically attractive, by enhancing or muting certain things. The level of one's physically attractive appearance can can help in such matters as increasing people's interest.

Like this then baking?

A burka, Rufus, or a sack, otherwise men like DWH won't be able to stop themselves thinking sexual thoughts about them, apparently.

Might be best to keep them inside at all times. In the dark. So they don't get called sluts at the age of 5.

Someone needs to tell me what is considered to be appropriate for my 13 year old

How short are her shorts allowed to be, top of thighs, mid thigh, knee length

What about t shirt? Sleeves to elbow, mid arm, sleeveless, spaghetti strap

That's a basic CHIlLDS summer wardrobe...suits boys and girls (though boys would probably wear a vest top no hold on...they may even be topless)

One of those all in one swimsuits on the beach? Not my boys obviously they can wear budgie smugglers (please no)

If I asked my daughter why did she think short skirts were sexually empowering she would be

Can anyone direct me to a floor length netball skirt?

I was wolf-whistled at age 13 onwards wearing school uniform, clumpy shoes and a long coat. So, newsflash, people will behave inappropriately towards young girls and women whatever they wear.

There are, I think, two quite different types of basis for 'wolfish' behaviours, though they will project in the same way. One is an expression of dominance/power which only requires you be female and vulnerable/not worthy of respect and another which requires you to step outside of peer conventional dress code/behaviour.