sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

Of course I will educate her and that's why she won't be wearing it until she is old enough to buy it for herself and therefore old enough to know what she is doing.

I don't think you have to buy a 7 year old a basque to start the ball rolling.

I think there's more to be said about Whirlpool's posting which included:
'A 10yo rolling up her skirt for school isn't (usually) having a thought process of "Men find long legs on women sexy. I want boys (and men) to find me sexually attractive, I want them to want to fuck me. So I am going to roll my skirt up".'

A 10 year old wouldn't (let's hope) have any thoughts about what adult men would call "sexy". But she might have a very good concept of what older girls do that causes them to be admired, and she might also have an idea of what's considered transgressive for her, and therefore, from a child's perspective, fun to do. She might even call this behaviour "sexy" though I doubt if she'd say "sexually attractive" even if she understood what it meant.

So maybe the kids are putting on a performance that they enjoy, without the life experience that would let them understand the social messages that clothing sends out. Adults see what the girls are doing, and we respond with all kinds of conflicted thoughts, about freedom, about what sexual attractiveness really means, about what it's fair to expect a child to do and what we ought to be protecting a child from--could we be wanting to protect ourselves from our own unease?

Whirlpool also said "anyone who thinks that adult men are liable to assault female children just because they've got a certain type of shoe on is deluded". Yes, true, but could we say that seeing a child in sexy shoes (if that's the specific item) builds up the impression that children are sexually desirable. Of course children want to emulate adults, but I think there's value in keeping a boundary between what's part of the adult world and the child's world. Maybe that's part of our discomfort with all this--it's having to intrude on children's lives with thoughts of adult sexual behaviour.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to protect your child captain. But at the same time you will be educating her about the world and what you teach her is important.

& actually many women don't want general "sexual attention" they want it from people they are attracted to as well. Some women like sexual attention generally of course, but many women find attention from random men really fucking annoying. (Intimidating / upsetting / angering / whatever).

I don't think that but others clearly do!! FFS, can I not want my daughter to not be tarred with that brush.

We are going in circles, I don't want my daughter to have to fight this battle until she is of the age of consent. She is too young I don't want her to be called a slut, I want to protect her. Sorry it is what it is, I am all for changing the norm but I have my child to think of.

Women have been sex objects for as long as we can think, surely, and are in every society in the world?

And yes I think it is too much of a leap to think a 10yo wants adult men to try to fuck her what are you thinking?

captain so again it's the men who are the problem, vocally leching over girls who are underage.

That is what is not right.

You honestly think they would stop doing that if all girls wore skirts 3 inches longer or whatever? Of course they wouldn't . It's not the clothes that are "making" them behave like that, it's the girls inside the clothes. And they can't change what they are, to stop it. So people blame the clothes, as they don't want to blame the men.

100 years ago they'd have been saying "cor look at her ankle if only she were older" etc etc

because as I said most women wear these clothes either because it makes them feel sexy, because they want sexual attention, because they like how it shocks.

I don't think they wear it because they think it would be practical when out in the garden or doing the shopping.

so when girls do it then it is not too much of a leap to assume these girls are doing it for the same reasons. But unless you own a daughter of that age you wouldn't necessarily know otherwise, I mean how many people who are not mothers to young girls knew that it is nigh on impossible to buy practical clothes for girls as young as 3 which are not tight/short or trying to be grown-up?

My mother never had this problem. We are going backwards. Women have become sex objects.

Sorry 'provocative'

But it is the men who are the problem there captain, not the girls. Why give girls the message that they are being 'provicative'?

"I do it to make myself sexy when out with my DH and I like how he likes what I wear. How can we on one hand say it is sexy here and not sexy there. Age obviously does not matter to a high proportion of men."

You can't see the difference between a 25 yo in a basque and heels and stockings, say, and a 7yo?

You think most men can't?

That's not what you mean, I'm sure!

The problem is men who are attracted to girls - and act on it - when they shouldn't.

100 years ago you might have donned a floor length nightie with a corset under or whatever the fashion was with Victorain lingerie.

The clothes change, the body under them less so. Many men find women's bodies sexy, especially certain types of bodies. The clothes are beside the point. Put the same clothes on a man, and the man will no longer find them sexy. He should't find them sexy on a 7yo. The fact that some do, and act on that, that's the problem.

perhaps fathers don't like it, because they know all too well how the male mind works. They've overheard the comments of their peers. I used to work in a male environment. A couple of them were talking about how they liked it when their DD brought their friends round and the outfits they were and, 'phwoar! if only they were a couple of years older!' These are supposed to be respectable family men... eurgh.

I think it's up to individual parents to decide that captain. What I'm looking at (and what whirlpool expressed so clearly) is the thinking behind the idea that girls are seen to be 'provocative' not because they actually provoke anyone, but simply because they wear clothes. Why are the girls and women criticised when it is the men who ogle, assault and rape?

Plus of course it's the attitude to women and children that's the problem and victim blaming. Some children will be groomed and attacked and stuff whatever the fashion is. Children in a certain type of clothes aren't "part of the struggle" - either something bad will happen to them or it won't and what they are wearing will have fuck-all to do with it. And, of course, victim blaming people will simply find something else that they did "wrong" to provoke the poor chap.

I don't think as a society we are ready to ditch sexual attire. Many, many women myself included wear sexually provocative outfits purely because they are sexually provocative. I do it to make myself sexy when out with my DH and I like how he likes what I wear. How can we on one hand say it is sexy here and not sexy there. Age obviously does not matter to a high proportion of men.

I bought did a skirt a few years ago when she was about 10. It was an inch or two aboppve the knee and very nice she looked too

Now she is inches taller...but the skirt still "fits"

I do find it hard to explain to her that some people are going to decide what type of person she is or what she "wants" based on the length of her skirt that was "cute" at 10 and "sexy" at 12

"Dress provocatively" is a horrible turn of phrase isn't it.

I'll have to see what I do when they get to 11 if they want to dress up like that! DH won't like it, that's for sure. I'll probably be a bit more relaxed. I wore too much makeup and heels when I was 12, I mean this stuff isn't new!

DD is 17 & went camping with friends - when we were packing I suggested she packed her shorts & sports bras, as she would be doing a lot of dance workshops.

She asked if it would be safe and if I would mind - I said she would be as safe there as she would be anywhere irrespective of what she wore & that shorts/crop tops were the best for exercising in warm weather

Her question is obviously a result of my attitude to her clothing when she was younger (I never really liked bikinis-preferred just bottoms or one pieces as she got older) - but maybe I went wrong somehow

but is it fair for them to be part of the struggle, when they don't really understand what that struggle is? Would you be happy for your 11 year old daughter to dress provocatively in make-up, heels, short and tight clothing, knowing that a good proportion of the people she encounter will either think she is seeking sexual attention? Utnil the day comes when it is no longer sexual then I'd rather grown women fought against societies preconceptions and not children.

And when sexual clothing does become non-sexual will people actually want to wear it? because I doubt many people will want to because it will just be impractical clothing.

If they are thinking that then there's something gone wrong, obv.

Well said whirlpool.

"But girls will always emulate women - that's just normal and standard - and this is where the problem comes as (as a poster previous has pointed out) the girls are dressing this way because it is the fashion. They are not (almost always not) dressing that way because they even want to look attractive to boys their own age, and you will be hard pressed to find any who dress that way because they want to look sexually appealing to a random passing 60yo lec"

Before anyone jumps on this I'm talking about younger children, an about sexual attractiveness.

A 10yo rolling up her skirt for school isn't (usually) having a thought process of "Men find long legs on women sexy. I want boys (and men) to find me sexually attractive, I want them to want to fuck me. So I am going to roll my skirt up".

Most of them just think, I'll roll my skirt up because that's what everyone else is doing.

Why people look at them and think that they "know what they're doing" ie they are deliberately trying to provoke a sexual response in random men, is quite honestly beyond me.

angels! not angles

So I guess what I'm trying to say in all that is not that it's clothes that sexualise children, it's people. By ascribing adult motivations to them, when they shouldn't.

This only happens with girls, where they are deemed to "know what they're doing" in this regard from a very young age by lots of people, words like "knowing" and talk of "jail bait" and so forth. Child rape victims being described as "no angles" and "child prostitutes" and so forth, there is a keen-ness to do this in order that they "share the blame" and take some of that away from the (invariably) men who have behaved inappropriately / assaulted / groomed / raped / etc.