sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

"Men whistle less from scaffolding because they are now likely to get a humiliating riposte in front if their peers"

No, I reckon it's because they are now likely to have a complaint against them which will go on their record and possibly lose them their job in the right circumstances (like they're already on a warning, for example).

(Can you tell I've been reading this thread all evening? )

"No, loony feminism is pretending that we live in a rarified cultural vacuum where people can somehow do and wear whatever they want without judgement or even mildly-negative reactions from others. And then getting very pissy and accusatory when perfectly reasonable people point out that no, actually, we don't live in such a vacuum and we never will."

I absolutely agree. That would be really really loony feminism.

And I've simply never come across it. No feminist I've ever met has ever suggested such a thing, on any site I've ever been on.

It's something made up by people who don't pay attention to what feminists actually say, they just like thinking we think mad things like that. Sorry to disappoint.

Something else struck me, this "power" people are claiming that women have, just by having bodies.

By insisting that men getting boners about women, is actually an example of women's "power" you're achieving 3 things:

1. Ignoring that the vast majority of power in the world, is held by men. The women who have real power (not just nice bosoms which might encourage some men to have erections) are women like Theresa May, Hilary Clinton, Angela Merkel, none of whom got their power by sexually exciting men.

1. Making women responsible for men's sexual responses to us. Brad Pitt is fucking gorgeous. Really fucking gorgeous. Does that give him the same sort of "power" over women, that a 14 year old in a short skirt is supposed to have over men? Does anyone suggest that he's a danger to himself because of this power?

1. Re-inventing the idea of power for women as something which is incredibly dangerous. The whole point of power for men, is that it makes them safer, more secure, more able to relax and be comfortable, not more at risk of violence and attack. The idea that a child of 11 (or 12, or 14) has power and yet is made more likely to be violently attacked by a grown man because of that power, is beyond fucked-up. The mental contortions it takes, to re-interpret what power actually is, in order to absolve men for their violence and blame girls for men's violence against them, are quite considerable. Lots of people manage it though. That's rape culture for ya.

There are probably lots of other things you're achieving with that silly idea that I can't think of right now, but those are the first 3 that spring to my mind.

Yes Basil, I actually wrote a post asking Japab, how the conversation would have gone if the girl was 16 but deleted because I couldn't get the wording right.

I just wondered if pointing she was 14, meant that had she been 16 then such comments were ok, or that they would have agreed with him and joined in.

That would be a legitimate point whether I was a man or a woman, if I was speculating on any specific individual woman. All any of us can do then is draw inferences or make assumptions, which may or may not be correct for this one person. Not sure I have been doing that however, just by stating that something is possible in response to a blanket statement about women.

Given the amount of women and girls who have said they don't like random sexual comments from random men or being judged on what they wear, not just here but in society in general, it makes more sense to start with the assumption that young girls and women are just dressing to please themselves for whatever reason instead of assuming shorts or whatever are an invitation for random men to make sexual comments on their bodies.

Your friend just sounds creepy JAPAB.

Even if he'd thought the child was older than she was, how much older did he think she was? 18, 19? How old is he?

He obviously thought you'd be open to a bit of male-bonding over objectifying a very young woman's body.

Eeeeuw, quite frankly. Creepy, creepy, creepy.

#Womencansee. And it's revolting.

I am of course talking about adult women. For children you keep your assumptions to your self

All any of us can do then is draw inferences or make assumptions, which may or may not be correct for this one person

And then keep those assumptions to ourselves. Should the assumption be that the woman is indeed up for it she can unequivocally and enthusiastically let you know the assumption was correct. But checking the assumption involves things like conversation, engaging with her as a person and backing off when asked to. It's really not that difficult.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51
"What the women on this thread are saying, is that certain men will harass, pursue, irritate, assault & etc and so forth, girls and women, irrespective of what they are wearing.

You seem to be very invested in arguing against this"

No, I agree with that in relation to certain men. I disagree with the nevers. But as often happens in such discussions, disagreement over one thing gets magnified until it looks like people are in opposition on everything, when in fact they might agree on plenty.

marmaladeatkinz
"JAPAB It is irrelevant what you think women's intentions are, because you are a man. You have no knowledge of the internal motivations of women. You might be right, you might be wrong. But your musings on the subject are not relevant"

That would be a legitimate point whether I was a man or a woman, if I was speculating on any specific individual woman. All any of us can do then is draw inferences or make assumptions, which may or may not be correct for this one person. Not sure I have been doing that however, just by stating that something is possible in response to a blanket statement about women.

Well it's from 2014.

There is a thread at the moment talking about a Australian TV news show that has produced a prog about people with power influence money etc and child abuse in the UK and the cover-ups and so forth.

Galaxy Sorry is that an update on Haute de La Garenne?

whoops wrong thread sorry.

Everyone is free to think whatever they like, it's how they act that matters

Exactly. I can't stop any man or woman for that matter looking at another woman and thinking "slut". But if they say it out loud I'm free to think , well frankly, they're not anyone worth bothering with.

haute de la garenne seems an investigation is underway and some people have been imprisoned.

I'm sure this has been posted before, but I still find it an interesting take to turn the tables and have a man being the one harassed and abused on the street.

www.buzzfeed.com/marietelling/this-powerful-video-shows-men-what-it-feels-like-to-be-subje#.enjzrEylz5

Did you read my whole post? You know the bit where I said pretty much what you say here?

It is a certain type of mindset that insists that women and girls must be trying to send all these messages (of availability) to all and sundry men

And we have seen from posts here it's not just some men who have that mindset.

My point is that imposing interpretations of what clothing means is just as irritating when a certain type of feminist does it as when a sexist man. It's actually quite refreshing on this thread for that line not to be taken. I am not arguing against anything you or marmalade have said on this thread (although I'm not keen on " gender neutral clothes as being the way forward)

I wish I'd said something now in response to the "loony feminist " post. This thread to me seems entirely moderate and mainstream.

Agree with all that Nooka.

In any case surely there is a huge difference between seeing someone attractive who is looking attractive (like the 14 year old with nice legs) and thinking 'that person is attractive' which I imagine we all do from time to time if we are paying attention, and assuming that they look that way in order to get us (random people) to respond in some way. Especially given that that reaction is mostly unwanted and often quite frightening.

If I see a lad with a nice body I can appreciate that without wanting to make advances towards him, or feeling that he is in some way leading me on (which it sounds like was the man in JAPAB's scenario's reaction). It's a really pernicious view that girls who simply happen to have bodies that are attractive to the men are somehow responsible (have 'power') in some way for the way those men choose to react.

Everyone is free to think whatever they like, it's how they act that matters.

Why bring it up then? This thread is about as far away from that stereotype of "what feminists say" as you can get, and the existing conversation is still ongoing, I'm not sure what prompted that lengthy post. Wanting to argue against feminists taking a position that feminists themselves have been arguing against for hours and hours and hours. It seems weird. To me.

No Galaxy it was not aimed at anyone on this thread which as you say has been defending the right of women to wear what they want. That is not always the case however. Or rather "the right to wear what you want" comes qualifications.

And to paraphrase of course "NAFALT"

JAPAB It is irrelevant what you think women's intentions are, because you are a man. You have no knowledge of the internal motivations of women. You might be right, you might be wrong. But your musings on the subject are not relevant

Affecting his thoughts is not what women on here mind.

It is when their actions are affected, they get the hump.

And in the case of your friend, he didn't just have a thought, did he. He expressed that thought by making salacious remarks to his friends. As many men do. When other females, or the object of the remarks, can hear. And you know what? We don't like it. So tell your mate to keep his trap shut in future.

What the women on this thread are saying, is that certain men will harass, pursue, irritate, assault & etc and so forth, girls and women, irrespective of what they are wearing.

You seem to be very invested in arguing against this, as far as I can tell your reason for feeling so strongly, is because your friend admired the legs of a nearby female, and then when he found out she was 14, he felt disgusted with himself, and in an inspirational example of identifying the root of his problem, blamed the girl's skirt, and by extension the girl.

And since that comment you have been going on and on about how sometimes women wear skimpy clothes because they want to look attractive to men. Well yes. But rarely to any passing man. And actually more often they just want to look "nice". And what does this have to do with a 14yo anyway? Your friend thought she was unreasonable for wearing a short skirt while being in possession of a pair of nice legs and making him want to have sex with her. Do you think she was unreasonable?

"& JAPAB you are annoying really. You are completely ignoring all the stories from all of the women who have told stories about being assaulted etc when they were young, to keep banging on a point about well some women wear clothes to show their bodies off (well sure, and some their faces, and some their hair, and etc) and this somehow means that it was really awful of your friend to be tricked by an underage girl into liking her legs."

I mentioned it to give a concurring real life example of the way someone was dressed affecting the thoughts of an observer. The above is your spin. I wasn't even thinking of it in my last few responses to you. I was responding to another one of your "never"s, this time about clothing never having anything to do with the "process" of inviting attention. Sometimes I reckon it does. Sometimes not always.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51
All I have been doing is disagreeing with the notion that dress makes no difference to anything, ever. Sometimes it does.

If you were to go back through the discussion between us you will find that in the main I have been responding to your "never"s with "sometimes". Disagreeing with a "never makes a difference" with "sometimes it does" is not to say " it always does" and therefore be dismissive of individual accounts of people being leered at whatever they were wearing.

Sometimes, for some men, it does make a difference. It is not the case IMO that it either NEVER does, or that it ALWAYS does. Hope that clarifies.