sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

Because it makes them look fake-adult, Cailindana. I suppose that, in my experience, children who are allowed by their parents to wear inappropriately adult clothes are often allowed to behave in adult ways too. I think it often demonstrates a lack of good judgement on the part of the parents, which will probably be apparent in other aspects of the child's life.

And as for clothes being superficial... well, in the literal sense they are. But the clothes people choose to wear can say a lot about them. People (especially teenagers) like to be able to choose what clothes they wear because it is means of self-expression. It's the main reason most kids hate school uniform. You can't claim it as a means of self-expression and then claim it says nothing about you.

Interesting discussion. I am not a feminine woman, I don't own any high heels. I let my 11 year old dd choose what she wears. Sometimes it's 'skimpy', but surely the onus is on adults to recognise she is a child and not to 'slut shame' her

I don't have time for people who are so ininvested in what other people wear.

Dd went through a phase of wearing a hijab. I received feminist comments about that

Clothes are so superficial.

I find it slightly naieve to imagine that you can protect your DD from being called a slut, by not allowing her to dress in clothes which in your opinion, denote her as a slut in the eyes of the world.

I've been called a slut hundreds of times, I'm sure. Sometimes because I've been running while in possession of a vagina (men have yelled it from vans etc.), sometimes because I've disagreed with someone or stood up for myself, sometimes just because I'm in the company of a man who hates women. At no time was what I was wearing, the defining variable in whether I was called a slut or not.

Slut is simply a hate-speak term for a woman, in the same way that the N word is a hate-speak term for a black person. I recognise that when someone calls me it, it says nothing about me and everything about them and that's what I've taught my 13 year old DD. She'll almost certainly be called a slut at least once in her life and probably far more often, because any minority group will suffer an "othering" insult at some point in their life. There's no point trying to avoid being called a slut if you are female because any woman can be called a slut if a man (or another woman) doesn't like her, so to teach your children to try and avoid it, is really and truly pointless. It's like trying to teach your child to avoid being called a racist or homophobic term. You can't. They'll be called it anyway, no matter what they wear or how they behave. What you need to teach them, is how to deal with the name-calling that will come their way, not to live their lives to try and avoid the name-calling.

yup, I'm sorry too because all that is still happening to girls every single day. I never bothered to report any of that stuff - I couldn't see the point, it's not like they were going to be tracked down, and I just wanted to get on with things. I realise now, of course, that it would have been worth reporting because people just don't realise the extent to which this goes on if they haven't experienced it themselves.

That's awful Laurie I am sorry

I was very confident and assertive as a girl. I didn't just look like I knew where I was going, I knew where I was going. Just walking down the street or sitting on public transport throughout my teenage years, I was wanked at, flashed at, groped - not to mention the verbal stuff - whilst wearing school uniform or jeans.

What makes the clothing inappropriate holmes? What I'm getting at is, I understand that you think it looks awful, but you also 'disapprove' of it - why is that?

No Cailindana, they are not fair game. As I said in that same post 'There is no excuse whatsoever for a man to make approaches to an underage girl, whatever they are wearing'. Did you miss that bit?

It's just that upthread, it was said or at least implied that we should be absolutely fine with underage girls wearing very skimpy, revealing clothes, because to disapprove of this is effectively victim blaming because we are implying that girls should moderate their behaviour rather than expecting men not to view them as sex objects.

However, I see no reason why we can't disapprove of the clothing as being simply inappropriate for their age. I would not let my 9 year-old dd go out in high heels, a crop top and full make-up. Not because I think for a moment that men would approach her because of her clothes, but because she's 9 and would look bloody awful!

I am sorry if you took my post to be victim blaming.I was just suggesting we protect our girls better by teaching them to be confident and assertive (and it can be taught) than telling them not to wear a short skirt.

To me it just looks like kids dressing up like the women they see around them all the time. Do you find women who wear those kinds of clothes 'trampy and distasteful'?

Because it makes them look a bit trampy and it looks so distasteful.

Fair enough Mide.

I said in my second post that I obviously misunderstood. There was no implication intended on my part

Why twilight? That's a genuine question.

Mide, your original question was about people approaching people in order to start relationships. The implication I took from that is that you thought we were objecting to ordinary guys just chatting, which of course there is nothing wrong with. Guys who grope or intimidate women are not looking to start relationships - it is an entirely different thing.

No that isn't the case. Obviously some people don't like strangers talking to them. Do I think it's a female trait? Weirdly no.

I never said it did, I think your trying to see something in my posts that isn't there.

I'm sorry but what self respecting, responsible parent would allow their child of 11/12 years of age to leave the house in high heels, belly tops and short skirts?...... I would judge anyone who did.

Plus even if a guy is nice and smiley that doesn't mean a woman has to talk to him. If he approaches politely but the woman doesn't respond, turns away, doesn't smile, then the decent response there is to shrug and walk away. The guy might think she's a bit of a bitch but it's totally up to her whether she actually wants to engage with him or not.

Mide we're not talking about situations here where a nice guy has approached a woman in a bar and said "Hi my name's " We're talking about situations where a guy grabs a woman on a dance floor, pinches her bumb, grabs her chest, makes a sexual remark, comes up close to her and won't go away, trying to 'convince' her to dance/have a drink when she's clearly not interested.

I get the impression you're thinking women take offence at someone just talking to them - is that the case?

Cailin yes of course I can. Was merely asking, obviously misunderstood. Although a smiley friendly approach means different things to different people. Not that that excuses some people's behaviour

holmes

I would think that most 14 years olds dressed up or not would quite like the attention of a 14 year old boy, or maybe a 15 year old, or oh goodness an 18 year old

They'd have kittens if a man looking like their dad started making sexual come ons to them

To use my daughter as an example she knows that the boys like her...she had a 14 old ask her out it wouldn't cross her mind that a 30 year old might like to shag her and that by wearing denim shorts she is telling that 30 year old that she is fair game

But I'm probably wrong, my children are very unexperienced

Some men, obvioulsy. Sorry.

I was kind of expecting that to come up! The latter, definitely. There is nothing wrong with someone saying in a friendly way, hey, would you like a drink. There is nothing at root wrong with it even if they are regarding you as female first and a person 2nd, ie if they're up for sex with strangers as sex and not relationships. All's fair between consenting adults. But why are men so unable to read the simple signal of lack of interest - even to the extent of ignoring 'fuck off and die' - why will they press their 'suit' regardless? Because they feel entitled and that the woman has no right to know her own mind.

So say they do dress that way to attract male attention - does that mean they are then fair game?

Going back to the original question, I think it is a bit different depending on the age of the child in question.

My dd (age 9) is quite uninterested in clothes and prefers to wear jeans and a t-shirt. There are girls in her class who will wear full make-up and quite adult outfits when nit in school. I don't think for one moment that they are doing it to attract male attention. They are just trying to look grown up. I don't like that look on little girls - not because I think they are 'tempting to men', but because I just think it looks a bit unclassy tbh.

However, once we are talking about girls of 14 or so, the motivation can be different. Obviously there is no excuse whatsoever for any man to make approaches to an underage girl, whatever they are wearing, and girls should be able to dress without worrying about effects it might have on men, but it would be naive to think that none of those girls dress in that way expressly to attract male attention.

Mide - what we're talking about here is sexual assault and rude, entitled, intimidating behaviour. Surely you can see the difference between that and a nice friendly smiley introduction followed by a chat?