sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

I don't use the word trampy either. Or slutty, or any of those appallingly sexist ways of dismissing women. And believe it or not, I'm not that interested in clothes either.

It occurs to me to point out that when I talk about judging people by their clothes or appearance, I don't necessarily mean judge negatively. I mean make assumptions about. In the sense that I'd walk past people and maybe think 'She's on the way to a party. He's a bit scruffy - maybe he's been doing DIY or maybe he doesn't care much about his appearance ' etc. If I were a stranger looking at me, I'd think 'Early 40's, mum, not very interested in fashion. A bit mumsy and doesn't iron' .

It is true that perhaps some of my more strong judgements are about kids wearing clothes that look too adult. I guess that is because I (like a lot of parents) am wary of my children being pushed by peer pressure into growing up too fast. And I see 'adult' clothes as an outward sign of this, which is why I don't like it.

As a teacher I am generally regarded as sympathetic and nice by my pupils, I assure you. I would not dream of letting a child's appearance affect the way I teach them or treat them. In any case, once you meet people, you immediately have far more information on which to base your understanding of them.

When I see them in their own clothes, I do judge. In that I might think "If I were that child's parent, I would not have let him/her come to school in that ridiculously short skirt/inappropriately sloganed t-shirt/ high heels/ see-through dress etc. And I wonder why the parents did allow it, and what else they allow.

I don't think this is saint like, it's normal

I accept it might happen subconsciously occasionally, as a first impression...but I wouldn't base opinions on it. If I recognise such a thought, I'd I'd put it in its place of being a prejudice..and tackle it
not use confirmation bias, as you appear to have

Fair enough. I entirely believe that you judge people on their clothes as I can accept other people are different than I am. I honestly don't judge on clothes as I have very little interest in clothes and I haven't seen any personal evidence that clothes are reliable indicator of what a person is like. Not everyone thinks the same way you do holmes.

I don't think certain clothes are trampy and distasteful for example. Not all clothes are to my taste but I don't use the term 'trampy' for anyone.

Ok I'm done. I have never got into any kind of argy bargy on MN, and I'm not going to start now, in spite of words being put into my mouth. You may indeed be the few amazing saints who make no judgement at all about people unless you know them. In which case, well done you. I believe that in the majority of cases, we can make a pretty good guess at some things about most people by observing them (and their clothes), and I think that almost everybody does this, all the time, every single day. I'm surprised that you don't believe that.

And before anyone starts I know there are situations like work where you have to dress a certain way. In that case I would say to my children that yes you do need to follow the dress code as best you can but if you find that you're not really 'fitting in' then you should consider whether that job is really right for you.

In social situations it is entirely different. What a person wears is totally up to them and if others look and judge, well good luck to them. I have better things to do with my life than to make up stories about other people based on their clothes. I'd rather get to know people who dress in all sorts of ways.

If my kids ever say to me 'what if they judge me on my clothes?' I'll say 'well that's a lucky escape for you then, why would you want to know someone like that?'

I always suspected there were people who judged others and their children on their clothes but I've never actually heard someone come out and say they do it.

I'm with cailin I have opinions on clothes (not very strong ones!) about what I like the look of etc. But I don't form any opinion of a person's character (or family ) based on what they are wearing. I don't think this is unusual

Holmes you think the sub conscious judgements we make, which help protect us from harm are based on what people are wearing??

Excellent post Rosa

I have an opinion on clothes, in the sense that I like some and not others but I honestly don't think I judge people based on their clothes, simply because life experience has taught me that clothes tell you little or nothing about a person. I have friends who dress in full leather and heavy eye make up, friends that wear short skirts and heels, friends that wear mainly sports gear. They are all lovely people.

I think it's incredibly narrow minded to look a child and make judgements about their parents based on what the child is wearing without actually knowing that child or their parents.

Also for some reason you see dressing like a woman as being 'distasteful.' What's distasteful about looking like a woman?

I don't believe that anyone is not judgmental, ccailindana. And no, it would be utterly idiotic to judge someone on their clothes rather than on the way they are. Nobody would do that if they had any knowledge of the person. We probably only judge people solely on their clothes when that is all we know about them.

I too teach my children not to treat people differently according to their appearance. Not to treat them differently. I am not naive enough to think that they won't make their own judgements though. Because that is what humans do. It is what allows us to be drawn to some people, be wary of some people, be attracted to some people etc. And much of that begins at first sight.

Hear hear rosabud.

It is only the girls. On every level:

Level 1: whether it looks "nice" or not - no one cares whether football kits on boys look "nice" or not. And, even if we don't think they look aesthetically pleasing, we put up with it because the aesthetically pleasing requirement is not important enough when applied to boys to stop them doing something.

Level 2: whether or not football tops will encourage them to behave too much like men in other ways - behaving like men is a good thing, behaving like women is open to judgement.

Level 3: whether or not it will encourage sexual attention - many professional footballers on the field, are seen as sexy - but it's OK for little boys to wear their strips because boys are not the gatekeepers of sex and will not be considered as trying to attract women with their clothing.

Level 4: the fake adult argument. It is OK for boys to be fake adults because adult men are perfectly acceptable. Adult women are not. Little girls are acceptable, they are sweet and well-behaved and controlled by their parents but when they become women, they start to have their own opinions and make decisions in all sorts of areas but, especially, in terms of how they behave sexually. This is open to judgement and disapproval, it is linked to fear of female sexuality and attempts to control it in our society. Thus, boys growing up is OK, girls not so much.

Holmes - so you're judgemental then, and decide what a person is like from their clothes rather from who they actually are. I'm sure you're lovely and everything but I won't be teaching my daughter that she needs to dress a certain way so that people like you don't judge her. I also won't be teaching her that it's ok to judge others based on what they're wearing. I did plenty of 'adult' things when I was a teenager and I never once wore a short skirt.

It's fine if you don't think certain clothes are 'nice' but in that case I think it isn't fair to try to control what a teenager wears just because you don't like it. Everyone has their own taste but imposing taste on someone else is quite controlling.

I don't think it looks nice

What is 'nice'?

the effect on men comment is just out of order totally wrong on all levels

but i do think you should teach your children appropriate dress cropped tops yes miniskirts yes both together perhaps not

there is a difference between guiding choices and expressing freedom i would not allow my dd to wear cropped top and a short skirt together nothing to do with men and phedofiles round every corner scares etc just because i don't think it looks nice plus if your going out you need to be vigilant about your top and your bottom half at the same time its not a comfortable "look" and actually my dd likes to be comfortable in her clothing choices

I do agree that it's hard to find good cheap clothes for girls sometimes

We went to Jordan two years ago and dd ended up in next boys shorts as they were nearly knee length as I couldn't get any girls ones

Handy to pass on to her little brother though

And I am teaching my Dd not to give a flying fuck what other people think of what she wears Holmes

Because your opinion, for example, is judgemental and incorrect. And this is true of so many people. She (or I) got judged for the hijab

It's ridiculous to think that because I allow her to experiment with makeup (which I don't wear btw) and wear short skirts (which I don't) that I would allow her **to drink alcohol...Which would be damaging to her health

rose

Ido feel that it's only the girls

My daughter wears very tight school trousers - not allowed as part of the uniform

They are hipsters -not allowed as part of the uniform

Boys wear similar -not allowed as part of the uniform

She has never been told off about them, or any of her male friends

Most girls wear skirts, short ones are not allowed, they are regularly told off, made to kneel down to check the length in assembly's (not dd as she is in trousers, anyone in trousers is excused) and letters come out to the parents on a regular basis

I once got into a heated debate with another parent who thought that short skirts were dreadful because as she walked past the senior school men were looking at the girls, beeping their horns and yelling. She just didn't get my point that the MEN shouldn't have been doing that

I think the fake-adult argument one is interesting, that if we allow our daughters to dress in "inappropriately adult" ways then it might hint that we also accept "inappropriately adult" behaviour from them too. But what does that mean, that we allow them to be disobedient? Or that we allow them to be involved in something sexual such as trying to attract a boyfriend at an "inappropriate" age?

Apart form all the arguments about pressures from every corner of society/the media etc which teaches girls that attracting a boyfriend/husband is the holy grail of their existence, why are we only reserving this fake-adult concern for girls?

Lots of little boys, my own included, wear pretend football kits imitating professional premiership-league footballers. This is "inappropriately adult" clothing as the little boys are not old enough or skilled enough to be real premier-league professional footballers. Following the same fake-adult logic that we applied to the girls allowed to wear "inappropriately adult" clothing, might this also be a hint that we are willing to accept "inappropriately adult" behaviour from these boys, too? So would that be allowing them to be disobedient? Or that we allow then to behave in ways associated with professional footballers including arrogance, over-ambition, selfishness and, on occasion, even violence?

Except no one is worrying about that because no one polices or judges boys' or men's behaviour in that way.

Marmaladeatkinz - I don't know, I guess the clothes and make-up are just part of the picture. And 'adult ways' - well, underage drinking, bad language, watching age - inappropriate stuff etc. I've been a secondary school teacher for 20 years, so I have had a lot of opportunity to muse on what I've witnessed. It's always interesting to see what the kids wear on non-uniform days.

I can appreciate what you're saying. Clothes are in some senses 'just clothes', but it is very difficult to totally avoid judging people on what they wear. After all, they (or their parents ) chose to put it on.

I was raped when I was 17. I can tell you exactly what I was wearing that night; jeans, 18 hole Dr martens and a baggy tie dye t-shirt covered in blim burns

I can't believe some people still don't get this. The incidence of sexual assault and rape has no correlation what so ever with Amy type of clothing

I think people cling to it though to make themselves feel safer. Like if you don't let your dds wear short skirts, they won't get raped

the clothes people wear say a lot about them

I think clothes say very little about a person actually. And are often used as a mask anyway

Holmes I understand what you say about self expression. But an outfit is a snapshot in time. My dd spends most of her life (outside of school uniform) in sports clothes; running or football kit, karate suit and mostly her jodhpurs. And when at home/out and about she is normally in leggings and t-shirts

But if you see her at the school disco in a short skirt and some makeup, you assume that I don't have good judgement?

What do you mean when you say that it is an indicator that they are allowed to 'behave in adult ways'?

Which 'adult ways'?