sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

Many men have to go through great struggles to control their lustful thoughts Lass.

Men fantasize over visual stimuli much more than women, hence porn mags etc whereas women tend to use their imagination (not all). A man can be more tempted to visualize sexual activity if they are prevented with sexual stimuli. A normal man among a group of elderly women and a normal man among a group of strippers dressed in their stripper gear is going to be having a vastly different thought experience.

Therefore saying a man presented with a developed 12 year old in a bikini and a 12 year old in baggy clothes will have the same experience is incorrect in my view. For some it will have little to no effect, others will have to force themselves to look away, some will notice 'she's developed' probably in the same way a woman might, and others would secretly lust, whereas others would openly lust. Denying that isn't going to make it go away

Women's bodies have power over men. What power?

Yes, what a woman wears causes a man to have thoughts about her. This is why Page 3 and sexy magazines are successful and why men continue to buy them. This is why many women dress up in the way they do, to make men want them or think about them in a sexual way. Not all women, but many.

I cannot stop men thinking in a sexual way. Therefore I make the choice to dress in a way where I will divert men's attention towards my face and character, away from my sexuality. I choose to keep my sexuality for my husband and I.

Women's bodies have power over men. No one can deny that.

I don't want some 40 year old guy picturing fucking my 12 year old daughter, that's why, regardless of whether he does anything abut it or not.

And you think if she's wearing jeans and a baggy sweat shirt the type of man who thinks that won't?

But if it's a hot day and she takes her sweatshirt off to show she is wearing a crop top otherwise decent men will have those thoughts?

I mentioned rape etc. because your line of thinking is precisely the school of thought that says only scantily dressed women are at risk of being raped. Poor men - they can't control their lustful thoughts.

So what a girl wears causes a man to have thoughts about her, so she needs to change what she wears in order to prevent those thoughts? But it doesn't cause men to attack her, just think about her?

I don't want some 40 year old guy picturing fucking my 12 year old daughter, that's why, regardless of whether he does anything abut it or not.

Lass I never mentioned anything about harassment, assault or rape. I have been raped myself, and I have no doubt in my mind that it has NOTHING to do with clothing. I am not talking about any of that. I am talking about thoughts.

I don't think it's slutty but I think it's extremely naïve for people to say it has no effect on men's influencing the thoughts men have because it does. Otherwise all porn and page 3 could be carried out in burqas

Have you read any of the individual accounts of harassment, assault or rape on here?

I'm not disagreeing with you at all Lass, I was agreeing that clothes give you information about a person, but I was saying it tells you very little about their character. Obviously in extreme cases where someone is wearing a symbol of aggression like a Nazi t-shirt you'd be well advised to take the hint that they're not nice people.

Mama - say it does influence men's thoughts. What's the problem with that?

sorry meant to say 'it has no effect on influencing the thoughts men have'

I don't think clothes cause men to assault women. Control issues cause men to assault women.

I don't think it's slutty but I think it's extremely naïve for people to say it has no effect on men's influencing the thoughts men have because it does. Otherwise all porn and page 3 could be carried out in burqas.

Fine Callin have it your own way.

Some one dressed as a nun might just be in fancy dress or think "hey I look great in this" and the blokes in the nazi t- shirts don't really understand the signals they are sending out. I don't agree. Feel free to focus on that as opposed to any other comments I've made.

I think it's perfectly fine to disagree with revealing clothes Mama. Everyone has a preference when it comes to what they wear.

What I object to is the idea that wearing revealing clothes is 'slutty' or causes men to assault women.

I am against young girls with women's bodies doing so, also, and I think it is naïve to believe that some older men do not watch them with sexual intentions or have a difficult time struggling not to. Covering up does not stop men thinking in a sexual way, after all, its hardwired into all of us to want sex to keep the human race
continuing, but I would choose not to let my daughters dress in a way that men find provocative.

There's so many things wrong in that paragraph I'm not sure where to begin.

If I see someone dressed as a nun, I assume they're a nun, as you say Lass, but they might not be. It doesn't tell me anything at all about that person though, so I can't make any judgement on who they are.

Clothes might give some information, particularly when it's a uniform of some kind, but it gives no indication of a person's character and I don't judge a person's character or lifestyle based on their clothes.

Sorry last sentence should read . "It's the twisting that to mean anyone who sees that and interprets it to mean any bloke at all which is wrong"

Extremely against the grain, but I disagree with women wearing sexually revealing clothes. I am against young girls with women's bodies doing so, also, and I think it is naïve to believe that some older men do not watch them with sexual intentions or have a difficult time struggling not to. Covering up does not stop men thinking in a sexual way, after all, its hardwired into all of us to want sex to keep the human race continuing, but I would choose not to let my daughters dress in a way that men find provocative.

I am also against men and boys walking around with short shorts and their tops off. Women tend to be less visual than men but I still don't find it appropriate for a man to walk around with nothing on in front of people.

I just think that most of your body should be reserved for your partner and yourself. It's private. But this said, I am a private person who is very family oriented and likes to spend a lot of time at home. I don't know if that influences my opinions in any way.

I don't necessarily mean judge negatively. I mean make assumptions about.

I am making assumptions about these people. And judging them negatively. Maybe it's just ill-judged fancy dress à la Prince Harry (although he was I accept judged to be an idiot rather than a Nazi) but I'm going to assume they are telling me something.

www.google.co.uk/search?q=people+wearing+swastika+t+-shirts&safe=active&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIqpbGn7bnxgIVwbMUCh0McAVq&biw=360&bih=511#imgrc=3T8XbqMhLIRE9M%3A

www.google.co.uk/search?q=people+wearing+swastika+t+-shirts&safe=active&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIqpbGn7bnxgIVwbMUCh0McAVq&biw=360&bih=511#imgrc=LvFJTe5_xVRNlM%3A

To take less extreme examples I'd assume a nun or a priest or a woman in a burqa is making a statement about his or her religious beliefs. It doesn't tell me anything about whether or not they are interesting or dull as ditchwater or whether or not they are people I might enjoy spending time with or whether or not they like cats as much as I do. I can probably safely assume there are topics on which I would never agree with them.

Whilst these are obviously very specific examples I don't agree with the statements that what you wear isn't a way of telling the world at least part of what sort of person you are.

It's of course entirely wrong that clothes should be interpreted as meaning up for unwanted sex. There's no reason at all for being judgemental about anyone dressing to be attractive to potential sexual partners. It's the twisting that to mean anyone who sees that and interprets it to mean any bloke at all.

Many posters also betrayed an attitude on this thread that if a woman dresses in a 'sexy' way then she can only expect men to assault her. Which is, frankly, a disgusting attitude to have.

I also wonder, why aren't we worrying about all the young boys out there with shorts and no tops on? Aren't they being inappropriate?

What I object to holmes, is that when girls and women wear tight/short clothing it's seen as reflecting on their character in some way. So they're not just wearing tight and short clothes, they're being 'inappropriate' - how? What's inappropriate about wearing clothes? Nothing. What people are doing is reading into what they're wearing, assuming that they're wearing those clothes so men will notice them and find them sexy. Again, what's wrong with that? Nothing much really. But the further implication is that women who want to appear sexy are up for sex, and will have sex with whoever gives them attention (hence the idea of a 'slut') and women aren't allowed to want sex or to have sex as and when they want. For women to display their sexiness is inappropriate. They must be sexy, of course, but only in a way that doesn't indicate they actually want sex.

It's fucked up.

No it's true that the only real example I could think of for boys was the inappropriate slogans thing. But that's because there is much less difference between boys' and men's clothing than there is between girls' and (some) women's. Now I realise that is in itself part of the inequality that remains between the sexes. However, I'd be much happier to see that difference in clothing narrowed by women embracing a more comfortable, practical and less fashion-mag-influenced look than narrow it by seeing young girls in hot pants and false nails tbh.

Sorry holmes that wasn't you that was someone else.

What sort of adult clothes do the boys in your classes wear? And what does that say about how they're 'growing up too fast'?

Holmes, you described short tight clothes as "trampy and distasteful." So you do indeed use the word trampy.