sexualisation of children vs slut shaming

you can teach them to control their lust as much as they can, too. I don't see what's so hard to get about that.

I suppose partly because I don't see why the onus should be on women to assist by tempering how they dress.

And partly because I think the idea of (almost) uncontrollable lust is a load of convenient bollocks. .

cailindana because a lot of men will be thinking about lifting up that dress and getting it on. Not me, thanks. Or my daughter.

I'd rather have a man approach me because he's wondering about my character or because he wants to get to know me. Not because he thinks he can make his vision a reality. It is not possible to stop lust but it is possible to divert attention elsewhere as much as you can.

Yes, some people find nuns and covered up people sexy, but they are in the minority compared with people who find skimpy clothes sexy.

JAPAB the take-away for me from your little story is that the man should have learnt that sometimes people with attractive bodies are younger than he might imagine.

His actual takeaway seems to be that girls shouldn't dress like that and she'd someone "made" him have feelings that he didn't want. Basically with what happened, he blamed her for making him feel that way, rather than himself for not knowing (REALLY?????) that many underage girls have very developed bodies.

Do you think it's possible to control a child's thoughts Mama?

In the same way you try to teach your children not to be jealous, thoughtless, selfish, greedy, etc, you can teach them to control their lust as much as they can, too. I don't see what's so hard to get about that.

So if a regular guy approaches a girl who's wearing a short dress, what's the problem?

I'm still curious about your previous post JABAB about the 14 year old girl with nice legs - I can't understand what point you're making

Nope me neither.

To add, there are plenty of people, women and men, who are turned on by clothes that aren't skimpy. Plenty of people find nuns very sexy.

Mama How do you police these men from not having lustful thoughts and imagining what you are like under your all covering clothes?

I don't know how much or how litte make-up ypu wear (obviously) but many people find heavily kholed and long-lashed eyes extremely attractive.

Or are you suggesting men's response is purely Pavlovian i.e the exposure of a sufficient amount of flesh triggers drooling but they lack the imagination to think this way if flesh exposure is kept to a certain level?

cailindana no I don't think it influences attackers because attackers are not looking for permission or mutual social interaction in the way that other men are. In fact, I don't know if this is true, but I wouldn't be surprised if men attacked more women who dressed less sexually. If it is a control thing, maybe they go for what they perceive as 'forbidden' or someone who they wouldn't ever expect to be able to have sex with. Just a theory.

I'm not talking about rapists and attackers. I'm talking about regular guys.

I'm still curious about your previous post JABAB about the 14 year old girl with nice legs - I can't understand what point you're making.

I honestly think choosing what you wear in order to restrict the thoughts of other people is weird, but if someone wants to do that, good luck to them.

"All of your ideas around protecting yourself are restrictive and don't work anyway."

Speaking as a man IME I am far more likely to have aappreciative thoughts if I pass a woman in a bikini than I am if I was passing a nun. If someone does have a problem with men having such thoughts about her then dress can work in this regard.

She of course shouldn't have to dress 'restrictively' on men's account, but if her goal is to reduce the chance of lustful thoughts I am not sure why anyone would dispute that modifying dress can work here.

I'm still curious how you're going to teach your sons how to control their thoughts Mama.

So you do think that what a girl wears influences whether she'll be attacked or not?

cailindana not if they want it. Personally I don't. I have done in the past but am now not interested.

I'm sorry but I do think there's a problem with a grown man thinking he wants to have sex with a 13 year old girl, especially if that girl is my daughter, whether he takes action or not.

You can't prevent everything but you can certainly make a difference to what is portrayed and the atmosphere created. A girl with a pretty face who dresses in a covered up way will provoke different thoughts than a girl with a pretty face who dresses with barely anything on. And there will be differences in who approaches her, why they approach her and how they approach her. Whether or not that should be the case is immaterial. It is reality.

Ok JAPAB but I'm still not sure what your point is. Stating someone has nice legs isn't really a crime is it? Perhaps she did have nice legs. Does that change because she's 14?

Well we all know what a woman with a pretty face or lovely hair must do Whirlpool don't we? Cover them up. God forbid men would have to suffer them being lovely, we can't have that.

"I'm not sure what point you're making there JABAB?"

I was just agreeing with some of what MamaMotherMummy is saying by giving a RL example of someone having thoughts that were linked to dress, of someone 'developed' but underage. He revealed them in a way he might not otherwise have done because he did not realise her age.

While acknowledging that it is also possible that he would not have had them had he known as there can be a powerful no-no about such things.

Don't you teach your children about the values of self-control?

I will teach my children not to create destructive thought habits like low self esteem, excessive lust etc. As the Amish say 'you can't help if a bird lands on your head but you can prevent it building a nest'.

That's no guarantee that they will conform or use it but I will hand down the tools I've learned for positive thinking, CBT etc as much as I can.

What if a girl has a very pretty face or extraordinarily beautiful hair?

Do you and your family not go swimming in mixed environments / go on the beach on holiday?

Why do people need to control their thoughts? Thoughts are no problem at all as long as they don't translate into, or colour people 's actions.

All of your ideas around protecting yourself are restrictive and don't work anyway.

Do you think there's something wrong with a girl/woman attracting sexual attention Mama?

And for the record I do not think that a young girl is 'up for it' because she wears skimpy clothes. Many many girls I've known have dressed in a way that was attracting sexual attention completely obliviously.

You'll teach your sons to control their thoughts?? How on earth are you going to do that?

Whirlpool I'm not saying anyone should do anything. I'm saying if that I have a sexually developed preteen/teen I would not want her to be the target of men's lustful thoughts, in the same way I don't wear a bikini either.

Some women are unaware of some men's thoughts, do not mind them or actively enjoy them.

In my view, I don't want to reveal my body shape at all apart from to my husband. Different people and cultures think differently, so it is up to people to choose for themselves. However, they cannot turn lustful thoughts of men off, however much they might want to.

Men have sexual thoughts which are activated by visual stimuli. Scientific fact. They may choose to fight them, they might not, that is their choice I guess. I've made my choice of what visual stimuli I am providing in response to this.

I will teach my sons to control their thoughts as much as I will teach my daughters to be aware of the effect a woman's body has on a man.