Kids thrown in juvenile detention for refusing to see possibly violent father

God that's terrible Beryl. So sorry that happened to you.

That's dreadful, Beryl - and I suspect what is also going on here, that they would rather believe the father's story because of his "status" than believe he could be the bad guy and everyone else is actually telling the truth. :(

Somewhat off topic, but it pisses me off no end that US 'Human Rights Observers' turn up in Northern Ireland on a regular basis to ensure we aren't denying people's human rights, when it is glaringly obvious that their efforts would be better directed on their home turf, where they obviously don't give a shiny shit about human rights.

I have to say I find this quite triggering. I was placed in 'secure accommodation' 30 years ago, for speaking out about parental abuse I endured. I wasn't believed, as the parent involved was a respected professional, who claimed I had inflicted my injuries myself. I was articulate and opinionated, and the decision to place me there was most definitely taken to take me down a peg or two (later confirmed to me by social workers). I was there for 4 months, and it was shit. It affected my self confidence for years and years after it, and I realise as I type this, it still affects me.

Forgot the link again: everything-pr.com/tsimhoni-vs-tsimhoni/258461/

This is apparently the site of a PR company hired to support the father. It has a series of court transcripts and submissions by his legal team. Very interesting. It looks like the mother have indeed frustrated access at times, but the father has also made unreasonable demands too. The judge has been very harsh previously and the guardian is at he least very odd. The children's lawyers seem to be mostly absent.

I don't think that there is any doubt that the children are alienated from their father, how much the mother should be implicated in that is unclear (there are apparently some reports from counselors and psychologists but they are not in this document selection). However the allegation that they are the victims of Parental Alienation Syndrome is not as far as I can see substantiated, and I'm not sure if it even can be as it's not a recognised psychological condition. The older boys says he saw his mother being hit by his father. The younger one was physically harmed during the last unsupervised visit to the fathers home. Obviously something is very wrong but I don't think that the guardian or the judge (who think that the children are brainwashed and also quite fundamentally bad) are well placed to find a solution.

I wouldn't take anything on the Freep as gospel, frankly. They have... issues. It's like saying this is the honest truth because I saw it on Fox News, or read it in the Daily Sport.

Yes it is, pity.

"Surely if the mother really did alienate the children and the father has been fighting tooth and nail to interact with them he would have seized this opportunity with both hands?"

Well one would have thought so.

But she probably hasn't been alienating her children, he's probably been lying about that.

Parental alienation does exist, but it's a tiny, tiny problem compared to the number of men who abuse their families and then claim that the reason their kids are afraid of them and don't want to see them, is because of parental alienation. We're supposed to think it's an enormous problem because men think it's an enormous problem. Meanwhile, 1 in 4 women live with domestic violence and we're supposed to think they're exaggerating and/ or lying.

The one thing for certain is that custody should not be given to that judge. If you want to read a Jewish news spin on it (could possibly be behind a paywall for you): www.haaretz.com/blogs/routine-emergencies/.premium-1.665369

PArental alienation is definitely a thing. It is also, however, a useful tool for a manipulator to use to further abuse an abused family. The correct course of action at this stage in this case would be to work out which is actually the case.

Which is worse? If she is guilty of PAS then her children will be prejudiced against their father but will still be safe; if she is telling the truth then she is keeping them safe from a man who hit her in their presence and may or may not have hit them as well.

Assuming the former and forcing the children into a non-secure situation with a potentially abusive man is a pretty big risk to take. I for one would want to be VERY sure that she is the one lying, before potentially putting the children at risk.

So, are they free to return to their mother after summer camp?

Here you are, via Dr Google, news 10 hours old at time of posting:

www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2015/07/20/jailed-kids-hearing/30412597/

Oh and Dr. Phil is a hack quasi-psychologist (not licensed to practice).

Meaning what? You dont think parental alienation exists? Try Dr Google then. I would have thought common sense would tell anyone kids can easily become parental cannon fodder after divorce. Its not much of a leap after that to be able to empathise the effects that would have on them.

So, are they free to return to their mother after summer camp?

There are some mothers on here who have given up their children because they recognised that they couldn't be the best parent for their child. they are fantastic parents and don't get enough credit. But a man puts his kids through hell and gets congratulated for perservering.

What on earth does believing yourself a bad parent and giving up your kids have to do with believing yourself a good parent denied access to your kids by the other parent for years on end? Are you suggesting a parent should 'give up their children' and be credited for it when the other parent simply wants that to happen?

I started reading the comments under the linked article in the OP and had to stop because I was horrified that people were supporting and applauding the judge's decision.

The judge has clearly fallen hook line and sinker for the father's "line" and is determined that he must be the "good guy" in this scenario, so is making everything else fit into her view.

Those poor children, what an utterly hideous experience for them. And she expects them to even want to see their "father" after he was the one who allowed them to be locked up away from their family? she's insane.

The children have now been sent to a summer holiday camp for the next two weeks instead, as the judge obviously realised that her decision was very unpopular (bearing in mind that in the US judges are elected). The father is still in Israel, so he didn't choose to visit the children at a time when they would presumably have been forced to see him (given that the 'justified' claim for detaining them was for them to receive therapy and reestablish a relationship with their father).

Surely if the mother really did alienate the children and the father has been fighting tooth and nail to interact with them he would have seized this opportunity with both hands?

Odd that the judge believes that it is a place of punishment. "You'll have people watching you in the loo" (misquote) with the children separated from each other and the people who care for them. If that's how that state 'protects' children, then they need to have a look at how they do things.

The last report states that the children weren't locked up with juvenile criminals, makes you wonder what that wing of the centre was for

They were in a facility called Mandy's Place that is for abused and neglected children who are removed from the family for their own protection. I'm not sure what terminology is used in the UK, but in child protection systems in the US, this is sometimes called detention. It is temporary and from facilities like this, children may be placed in foster care, go back to the family with services in place or go to a long-term residential facility for abused children.

But it is certainly not for punishment; detention of this type is for protection of the child. This judge's attitude to these children is really reprehensible.

There are some mothers on here who have given up their children because they recognised that they couldn't be the best parent for their child. they are fantastic parents and don't get enough credit. But a man puts his kids through hell and gets congratulated for perservering.

I just don't understand the father's long term plan. If his aim is that he wants a relationship with the children, then surely at the merest whisper of them being sent to juvenile detention, he'd step back, tell the children he loves them and that he would always be there for them if they changed their minds. It would be heartbreaking for him sure but I can't see how he thinks he can salvage anything out of this.

But he obviously doesn't want a relationship. He wants to bend everyone to his will. And it's so sad and pathetic that a family court judge is facilitating it.

Goodness me some of the transcripts are really painful. the judge appears to be a real bully, and the things that the guardian is alleged to have said to the children are just so nasty, trying to blackmail and bully the children to see and interact with their father. I cannot imagine how anyone could possibly thought that a good relationship could have been developed on that basis. Poor poor kids.

Oh and this site is interesting. It is the father's PR company, but has a number of other court transcripts.

Some of the comments from the guardian and the judge go a long way back (eg the children behaving in a cult like manner when refusing to engage with their father). It looks like the mother did make it very difficult for contact to happen at times, but some of the examples given of her bad behaviour are just weird - including a complaint that the mother asked to move a visit from 4pm to 4.30 and then arrived at 4.15. There also seems to be the assumption that the only reason why the children don't want to interact with their mother must be because of their mother, even when she is not there ("the apple doesn't fall far from the tree").

Oh and this sending the children off to the juvenile detention was not something new out of a fit of pique - the judge plainly says that she has done it before (and it looks like she has probably sent them um down too, although it's difficult to tell from the papers) and the things she said about that child were really really unpleasant, quite extraordinary really.

The other judgements seem to mostly consist of the parents lawyers disagreeing with each other and demanding money for being messed about, and the judge telling the dad how wonderful he is for persisting. A lot of the mother's lawyers complaints appear to be that the mother was complying with orders and the father was not, but was allowed all sorts of variances.

There's quite a funny bit where the mother's lawyer is talking about what fun the parenting time is going to be, just after it's been determined that the children will be spending all day in a locked room with their father and a supervisor. I assume that was one of the visits when the children decided not to communicate with any court officials and to totally ignore their father. It doesn't seem terribly surprising!

Besides the jaw dropping cruelty of the judge, how is this not a bigger scandal? If this happened in the UK, there would be an immediate review, ministers would be called to answer etc etc. how is it possible that a whole nation's government can be so ignorant to find this acceptable?!

It sounds like the judge wanted the children to be in a place where they would have no choice but to go to counseling (after previous refusals) and to see their father. She clearly felt that all three of them were only acting under the influence of their mother, oh and that they were very rude children who needed knocking down a few pegs.

The father obviously felt the same way as given the opportunity to see his children with no interference from their mother, decided not to bother, rather leaving them in juvenile detention (which surely must have been very frightening for all three of them) with no friends or family allowed to visit.

The last report states that the children weren't locked up with juvenile criminals, makes you wonder what that wing of the centre was for - children in mental health crisis maybe? It does sound like the mother certainly has been very difficult and probably has obstructed contact, but surely the appropriate action would have been to punish her not the children?

Anyway, the father has now filed for custody.