I don't identify as a feminist - so why does this get on my nerves?

Here here, Dollie - excellent complaint!

OP, I had exactly the same reaction (to the extent of growling "aaarrggh FUCK OFF!" at the radio before I switched station).

Lousie Pennington (formerly of this parish) has written very pithily about Jenner's inclusion in the WH Power List here, and I hope she won't mind me reproducing her post below:

Caitlyn Jenner makes Woman’s Hour Power List

Shall we enumerate the ways in which Caitlyn Jenner has helped women:

1. Killed Kim Howe with his car.

2. Failed to financially support his children.

3. Stole his teenage step-daughter’s underwear to wear it around the house.

4. Reinforced neurosexism and heteronormativity with his stance on ‘female brains’ and ‘female souls’.

So, Bruce Jenner makes the list for doing sweet fuck all for women. Fabu-fucking-doodle. Next we’ll see Charlie Sheen on the list for not insulting, denigrating and threatening. one of the mother’s of his children for a period of 24 hours.

I made a formal complaint to the BBC here.

Caitlyn Jenner, a transgender woman who has killed a woman (Kim Howe) through dangerous driving, failed to financially support her children from previous relationships, and who admitted to stealing and wearing her step-daughter’s lingerie has been placed on Women’s Hour Power List. What precisely has Jenner done for women that negate killing a woman, financial child abuse, and stealing her stepdaughter’s lingerie (which in and of itself is deeply creepy)?

Could Woman’s Hour not find any women to place on this list that haven’t committed criminal offences like financial child abuse? Or, not killed anyone recently?

Jenner’s inclusion makes a mockery of the idea of a power list.

I have also sent this complaint to the BBC:

I wish to complain in the strongest possible terms about the inclusion of Caitlyn Jenner in the Women's Hour Power List.

This male-bodied individual has acheived nothing of note since their "transition", other than spending ten of thousands of dollars on plasic surgery in order to reify gender stereotypes which harm actual women and girls.

At present, this kind of politically orthodox double-think is unfortunately de rigeur in certain circles (young academics and students, mainly), but I am bitterly disappointed and actually deeply offended that the Woman's Hour editorial team (of whom I expect infinitely more in terms of analysis and critical thought) felt it was appropriate to include this person in their Power List, when they are neither female, nor an advocate for actual women and girls, nor influential beyond using their immense wealth and media presence to appear on the cover of Vanity Fair.

If Woman's Hour choose to repeat the Power List exercise in future, it would be reassuring to know that the women who are likely to feature on the list will a) have actually achieved something of note beyond tucking their genitals between their legs in order to pose in underwear on the cover of a magazine, and b) be actual females.

I am feeling pretty bleak about this today. Can women have nothing that is our own anymore, even bloody Woman's Hour?

Caitlin Jenner didn't achieve anything as a trans woman, all her achievements were as a man with all the male socialisation and privilege that goes with being a famous, talented male sports star.
That's why she doesn't belong on a list of powerful women.
Her only achievement as a trans woman is going from a fugly man to a vaguely fuckable (because she doesn't look like a 60 something woman and she has had ££££££££ of surgery) female.

But CJ has been an out transwoman for 5 minutes! She's had 60 odd years of fame and fortune entirely predicated on her (male) athletic skills - in a sport where women are not allowed to compete.

She has done nothing to further the lot of most 'ordinary' transwomen who cannot afford the surgery or the photoshoots, she's not helping, she's not a figurehead. Where's the influence? The only people who are going to be talking about her in 6/12 months time are the people who are already talking about the Kardashians - and I'd argue that they have very little influence in real terms.

trills they did make the point that it was 'powerful' women, not necessarily women one admires or likes...

Nonetheless, CJ has certainly shaped discussions recently about being a transwoman - it's hard to see what has been powerful in terms of women's lives.

I think that when a group of high achieving women is listed, it is done so because they have achieved success despite the statistical odds being stacked against them

I agree absolutely here as to achievements.

However, I have not heard the official description of the list.

If it's a list of those who are influential or "shaping conversations", Caitlyn Jenner certainly has done that.

If that were the case, a list of "influential men" might also have to include terrorists. Osama Bin Laden certainly shaped the course of conversations for many years.

But is influence just a matter of promoting discussion? I think it is more than that, effecting a more tangible change, I don't think CJ has yet been influential, it is perhaps a start, but so far has been mainly self-serving I think.

A lot of the other women on the list have a positive impact on others, CJ is celebrated for her individualism.

Didn't they say explicitly that it's not about achievement this year, or about 'quality' (can't think of a better word), but about those who are shaping people's lives and the conversations around us, for better or worse?

I heard an early trailer for it, and they were upfront that it wasn't necessarily the list it's been in previous years.

The description of CJ's influence is less full than that of others like Nicola Sturgeon and Anna Wintour. It is a surprise not to see any sportswomen on the list.

Here's a link:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/1wsc6xjTph1CvN5jWzLtfzT/womans-hour-2015-power-list-influencers

What Caitlyn Jenner has done for women is to remind everyone that the most woman you can be is to be in a glamorous frock on the front of Vogue! I think it's all kinds of wrong that this name was on the list.

Sorry cover of vanity fair not vogue, all the same to me as a woman surprisingly not interested in fashion

I agree. Also there is no such celebration of females who have transitioned to male, as you say, which highlights the problem. It seems to me it is stereotypical ideas of femininity and female attractiveness that are being celebrated. Lots of talk about her being beautiful, looking as attractive or more so than females by birth, wearing glamorous clothes, being on the cover of Vogue.

It seems like 'wanting to be female' that is celebrated is pretty much condensed to being about lipstick and gowns, and having an operation to make a smaller nose and fuller lips, but not about wanting ovaries and a womb and a smaller paycheck.

I'm not sure how 'brave' I even view it in Caitlyn's case, as in the context of the reality series (ongoing) in which Bruce had come to prominence recently, and the general publicity-seeking careerism of the entire family, to me, it seems like maybe it was always the plan to use the show as a springboard for her own, with a big 'reveal' along the same lines as proposals, pregnancies etc were treated in the show generally. (I haven't watched any of the shows, I only know what I have read about them, so may have misapprended it)

So, I have problems with it. I do identify as a feminist, am very much against discrimination of all kinds and for acceptance of people peacefully living their lives how they want to, but, still, I have problems with it.

By being so very public about her transition she's generated huge amounts of discussion on trans issues.

You can be influential because of who you are as well as what you do.

But how exactly is she influential Bertrand?

It makes more sense set to me now- it's not a list of high achieving women- it's influential women. She could hardly not be on it really.........

Sophie, I agree with your concerns about Caitlyn Jenner and about trans people in general. Im sympathetic - I know how important it is to feel that you're allowed to be your authentic self - but I don't get it. I see gender as totally socially constructed so I don't understand the idea of a 'female' brain in a male body, or vice versa. I'm very open to being educated further on the subject though!

I am very much a feminist by the way and suspect you may be too!

I'll go and look.

I didn't hear the programme- did they say anything about why she was on the list? Who chose them?

[too lazy to go and find out for myself emoticon]

You have summed up me feelings about Caitlyn jenner's inclusion. It's just so superficial when you look at the whole list her only achievement is looking pretty big whop.