I don't identify as a feminist - so why does this get on my nerves?

Lou, OP has stated she doesn't consider herself a feminist.

It would be just lovely if you could refrain from attacks on "MN Radfems" - I disagree anyway with what you are saying about the OP but please remember FWR is open to all. After all, you yourself are posting here and you obviously think of yourself as a feminist MN poster but not an MN Radfem. A little logic, please.

Cross posted, Sophie

That explains that then. I do believe that behavioural psychology is important. Not to excuse but to identify and understand causality.

I would prefer to take time to understand behavioural causality for 2 reasons:

1. To rob individuals of that 'get out of jail free' card
2. To help individuals understand the changes they are undertaking and so to reduce the trauma.

Actually, 3 reasons:

1. To educate the wider society to further aid individuals in their transition.

But would repeat reason 1, ad infinitum!

Bertrand, you may give individuals a moment, sadly many here have condemned without thought. The 'boss of me stuff' is one of the discussions I think would be great to have... without the heated (and usually protracted) entrenched exchanges.

Innocent... that's the point! Take any judgmental comment... and wonder why KM acted that way? Is it because he was in turmoil or just an unpleasant person? If the former then there are ramifications for others going through a similar transition. If the latter then there must be some understanding of why/how that is different from the former, so we don't waste time on it.

What may sound like excuses may actually be keys to understanding the reasons for behaviour... condemning without thought does not allow any learning, any understanding, any proactive measures to be taken.

Until we understand the behavioural psychology of any transgender journey comments that condemn out of hand are themselves bigotry.

So yes, I think your last sentence does display bigotry, or at least a lack of empathy for someone in an unusual situation. I hasten to add that I don't think you are bigoted, I don't know you. But that last sentence is another of the discussions I would love to see happen here, without the monster shouting, iyswim.

"Sadly the continued comments here simply go further to proving that MN RadFems give no quarter to any man who wishes to be a woman"

I will give plenty of "quarter" to any man who wishes to become a woman. What I will not do is allow her to wipe the slate clean and ignore anything she did in her previous life. And I will not allow her to automatically become "the boss of me", and redefine my status as a woman without consultation.

Sophie that was much the point I was making. Any discussion about Maloney brings up much more pertinent questions about the issue. Mainly because of his male life and his behaviour then. Jenner is too LaLaLand, less mundane. So any discussion about him and his transition would be watered down by his celebrity...

Sadly the continued comments here simply go further to proving that MN RadFems give no quarter to any man who wishes to be a woman. The dismissiveness, mealy mouthed, nasty certainties voiced here really do help reinforce the opinion that today's feminist is really quite an unpleasant bigot.

As I have said else where, I am an old fashioned socio-cultural feminist - I believe in equality for all, the right to self determinism and, possibly most strongly, the need to be understanding of the position of others. Not to accept it, to bow down to it, to pander to it, but simply to acknowledge its existence and to wonder about the possible connotations it throws up. Basically, stop before pronouncing any judgement on a person before having walked a mile in their shoes.

They key to eradicating unwanted behavioural issues is to first observe them, then look for key causal factors and then to try to understand and therefore remove/ameliorate those causal factors. That seems not to apply to transgender men. Happily I don't see this attitude in my real life. But I am disheartened to read it here on MN, again and again!

Ehric, you make it sound such a trying thing to be a woman when in actual fact it's fucking brilliant.

Reminds me of the way people speak about horrible old women - you must forgive her, she's old - well if she's become horrible recently maybe she can't help it, but if she's been a ghastly woman all her life the mere fact of having more years on the clock doth not a sweet little apple-cheeked old lady make. Likewise the mere fact of one's children having reproduced is not the magic wand that turns one into a lovely granny like the ones in fairy tales who don't try to kill or enslave their daughters.

I have known at least three transgender former colleagues and basically they were just people. Going through something that most of us don't, true, and some slack may be cut for that. But those who were nice people already stayed nice, and those who were a bit of a pain before they officially transitioned were a bit of a pain in different clothes afterwards.

You know, when I was a young feminist in the early 70s, we used to get very over excited about gay men, and often forgot completely that sexuality has no connection at all with wisdom, moral probity or even niceness. I had many gay friends who I let get away with behaving like utter dicks because I so liked being their friend, and it was edgy and cool. Having friends who were HIV+ was even cooler. I certainly see a parallel between that and the way my dd talks about trans issues.

Ah yes Kellie Maloney who spent 60 years as a man and now claims she wants to be the first woman to represent boxing champions and prove women can get to the top in the sport. What a load of bullshit.

Kellie Maloney also homophobic don't forget which caused her immense confusion when someone pointed out that she is a lesbian now

Kellie Maloney on her recent dating experiences: "I felt no attraction to the transgender women. One really stood out. She was big, 6ft, she looked like a very nice man in a dress!"

Are some people here saying that when a person transitions, their past life is expunged? They should be able to start their new life with the slate wiped clean?

"someone putting on a load of silky underwear and having some plastic surgery proves nothing to me, nothing whatsoever, except that this is their preferred appearance"

^ This.

Well, I was going to say that Kellie Maloney's life highlights the sheer hell that being transgender is. To the individual, their family, friends etc. I wondered if there would ever be a glimmer of understanding, rational discourse and maybe a less back and white view on here.

All of the above comments, e.g. whirlpools 2 posts above, regarding Kellie Maloney are the beginnings of interesting discussions. However here they always come across as absolute condemnation. I would wonder why, given his homophobia Frank still felt it imperative to go ahead with the change? I would wonder how his ex wife managed to forgive him his actions, why he sill has a decent relationship with his kids? I would wonder how she managed to forgive herself for the destructive actions he committed? I would wonder just how imperative the need to change must be for anyone to think/behave as Frank Maloney and still have sought to change? I would wonder how she will ever manage to make sense of her conflicting beliefs and emotions and be able to be happy?

I was also going to point out that it is a good job Frank/Kellie had more humane people in her life... you lot would just have consigned him/her to the bin, as some of you have, upthread.

The milk of human kindness runs ever thin, it seems.

sorry on phone couple of spelling mistakes there hope it still makes sense!

you can't just day that the term woman applies only to women living in the UK. not all of whom have a great time by any stretch of the imagination. it applies to half the population of the world you can't just ignore the billions of women and girls elsewhere and brush aside all that is being done to them because they were born with female genitals and then play competitive victims and say Oh trans women win do women have to do whatever they say.

it is true that trans people are at high risk of a host of problems including violence against them and mental health problems and there should be help and action obviously. but don't dismiss the absolute shit that is done to women and girls all over the world every day in order to make a case for it.