Being silenced/feeling voiceless

My two girls both choose to wear dresses most of the time but they wouldn't let them restrict their play. I'm happy to let them choose and I don't like the idea of someone looking down on them for choosing the 'girly' option

Absolutely spot on. I really hate the sort of judgemental attitude on FWR about things which are pretty or feminine. If challenged the response is always but of course feminists don't tell you what you can or can't wear (just that you're too dim not to realise why you prefer dresses).

Clearly it's just me with the pretty/impractical link then! I just can't think of things I would simultaneously describe as pretty and practical.

I've recently started running and I do find that people feel the need to ask me why. They seem to assume that I'm trying to lose weight or worried about my health, but actually I just enjoy it. Also, with the strength thing, I always assumed that I would never be able to do push ups or pull ups because I've been told so many times that women don't have upper body strength. My 'strength and flex' podcast disagrees, and promises that I will be able to do those things within 9 weeks of starting the programme.

Doing a lot of fitness stuff had this effect for me, Innocent. It turned out to be a double-edged sword, as it made me more conventionally attractive. I got so much appearance-based feedback from all quarters, it became difficult to remember who I was really doing it for. As an ex-anorexic, it was really crucial to avoid thinking of it as a vanity/control thing but that's what everyone assumed and wanted to see. I wanted to maintain physical fitness - it was very simple - but even the trainers would rabbit on about my fat percentage and toning my . I spent a lot of time being very cross in the gym

And women kept telling me I was "tiny", like this is the most wonderful thing you can say to a woman! I am not fucking tiny! Why do people insist on saying stuff about women's bodies, anyway? I rarely hear men telling one another they look tiny, toned or sexy. We've all been trained to objectify women, including ourselves. It takes quite a bit of guts to break out of it.

Interesting discussion. I definitely relate to the issue about feeling silenced, but especially about feeling voiceless- that there are ideas and emotions I want to express but I can't put them into words, so I can't make them clear even to myself. My thoughts about 'cis' and how the word 'woman' is used especially. Personally, I am a woman because of my physical body, that's all. If someone else is a woman 'because they feel like a woman', well that isn't the same meaning, so we need to find new words to express these new meanings.

It also frustrates me that the language is such a huge flashpoint. I almost feel that we need someone to bring out a new dictionary of terms that are all neutral and non-offensive, then we could get back to discussing the actual issues. It seems so bloody obvious to me that a child should be able to wear what they want, play with what they want and make friends with whoever they want to with no judgement. Then it wouldn't matter what they identified as. In fact, I wish that we didn't even need to talk about gender- why do we need to 'identify' as something, why can't we just be ourselves?

Another thing I wanted to say, in reply to the comments above about 'pretty' girls clothes. Pretty doesn't have to equal impractical, and I don't like the assumption that if a girl wears ' pretty' clothes she won't engage in physical play. (Not that the posts above imply this, but I've seen the implication often elsewhere). My two girls both choose to wear dresses most of the time but they wouldn't let them restrict their play. I'm happy to let them choose and I don't like the idea of someone looking down on them for choosing the 'girly' option.

In other circumstances it was an aesthetically beautiful dress, but this was a 7 year old trying to roller blade. She almost broke her neck!

I know my post sounded judgemental, and I would add that I chose style over practicality last night and now my feet hurt, so I'm probs just a bit grumpy.

I think style over practically starts when children are really young, it's a choice made by parents in the first instance. I have two nieces. One has a mum who prioritises practicality - she has almost no dresses because she loves running and climbing and my sister can't afford to replace clothes that get wrecked. The other niece wears dresses often, and always has. Her parents think she looks lovely in dresses so that's what she wears a lot of the time, and always on special occasions. My sister recently told me it was hard finding leggings for her DD because "they all make her feet look big". Niece is 3 and wants to be a princess when she grows up.

I think there's something in the word 'pretty' that implies a lack of practicality. There's pressure on women to look 'pretty', and that gets passed down to daughters.

A lot of those choices are driven by availability, Bolleaux. If you are a relative or friend picking up some clothes or toys as a gift, there's so many gendered choices it's easier (and possibly cheaper) to pick one than to pick something unisex.

I was drawn by the title of this thread because it was FWR that first put a name to the experience I've had, that of being silenced, in words and through the treatment I've received, because I'm female. I have been infantalised by my family, told what to think, what's good for me and what my role is expected to be, till I struggle to know who I am and what I really want.

My children are young so I'm around other young children a lot. I see the girls struggling to play properly in their pretty, glittery shoes that keep falling off, or trying to roller-blade in floor-sweeping handkerchief dresses and I wonder at what point style over substance starts to happen. When do you make the choice to look 'pretty' rather than practical and what influences that choice?

Just thinking out loud, but does it say something about society that all the words to describe female genitalia are either medical or offensive (or both)? Like I wouldn't be shocked to hear kids saying "bum" or "willy", but there's no word for girls to use. And around here, calling someone a cunt is the worst thing you could say, with twat a close second. But dickhead and penis are almost playful insults. Is it that female genitalia is offensive in a way that male genitalia isn't?!

Just realised that I've written a massive post on cis/trans when you asked for the discussion to move on!

Personally, I think that language is a powerful tool. I had never really considered that the words we use are themselves part of the patriarchal society we live in. But I suppose it makes sense. Maybe that's why we don't have an inoffensive word for female genitalia similar to the word "willy" for boys. So girls start off with no way to describe their own bodies. I certainly didn't even know what a clitoris was until I was about 16. I was pretty shocked to find out that I had one!

And while I'm discussing feelings, that sense of being voiceless makes me frightened. And that fact i perceive it as other people silencing me makes me angry.

I think part of my problem with being called (and expected to call myself) cis is that it's short for "cis gender". And I don't really believe in gender as an innate thing - I see it as a social construct. I recognise that others do believe in it, and have a strong sense of it. But I don't have a gender, and so I don't want to be called "cis gender". If it was short for "cis sex" then I'd be happy with that.

I think it's similar to religion, in a way. I know that there is a god. I can't explain how I know it, but it is massive part of my sense of self. Other people don't accept that there is such a thing as "god", and they think that it's a belief and a socialised one at that. I would never expect those people to label themselves in a way which assumed there is a god (like heathen, godless, heretic etc), I recognise that would be offensive. I'm happy to accept whatever word they want to use.

On the whole idea of feeling voiceless, that's part of why I get upset about the cis/trans debate. I want a word to describe "the group of people who have human female body parts". I need that word so that I can articulate why I care so much about sexual violence. When I'm told that I can't use the word "woman" as I always have, I feel that I'm being silenced and that I can no longer talk about sexual violence and how it disproportionally affects "the group of people who have human female body parts". Because I know full well that if I have to use that clunky phrase instead of a single word, people will stop listening to me.