Being silenced/feeling voiceless

Sorry, Jeanne, I had no intention to dismiss your thoughts. My reaction was "hmm, can I do that?" so I replied in that vein. If I seemed not to have acknowledged you properly, I apologise.

Massive apologies both - I should be in bed and my contact lenses are misting over!

I used to think like that, but not any more. I don't think playing along with delusions out of 'good manners' is healthy- we betray ourselves when we do it.

You make a strong point. I'm going to sleep on it.

I'm extremely flattered to be mixed up with you, almond. I realise the feeling may not be mutual

Paw, I think you're replying to Garlick not me.

There is tremendous interest in finding out what 'mind' is and whether it really exists

Wow. If my mind exists, then I think it's on the verge of exploding in trying to take that news on...

almondcakes "It's good manners, afaics, to honour Caitlyn's new name and call her 'she'. I've never had a problem with that."

I used to think like that, but not any more. I don't think playing along with delusions out of 'good manners' is healthy- we betray ourselves when we do it. As I said upthread - it can cause ptsd. I dread to think of all the relatives, lovers and friends who are going to need serious therapy after being sucked in.

People could definitely be more circumspect about ethnicity! Racist remarks have overtaken sexual harassment as the most common form of anti social behaviour I personally see happening on public transport.

But I am seeing a difference among people whose intention is not to offend, and the extent to which they feel able to talk about ethnicity and the extent to which they feel they can talk about gender in any way.

While part of that is that many young people have grown up writing essays about ethics around ethnicity and religion in RE and much more rarely around gender, I think a large part of not discussing gender is because of the trans debate.

I feel like discussion of issues facing women (and some of those issues are new for this generation) is on hiatus while this massive slanging match goes on over trans issues.

People keep making this 'wrong side of history' remark, but I don't think anyone wins in this debate. I don't see how trans women are ever going to get what they want. I don't see how it is possible for trans women and women to be seen as equally the norm by society. Because women are literally the norm that trans women are emulating. And I know that will sound offensive to some, but I can't think of a better way of putting it. I'm not trying to make a point that they are wrong. I just don't get it and perhaps someone can explain. It would be like if I said I wanted to be a piano player, but then argue I don't want people who can already play the piano to be viewed as normal piano players. Without them existing, what do I even mean by I want to be a piano player?

Soz Garlick

almondcakes

I did this, almond! I was explaining some of this to my friend in my own home, and dropped my voice because the window was open. I shocked myself, and have been trying to make up for it by sharing Miranda Yardley's posts on Facebook. Only one person 'likes' them but at least I am trying to un-silence myself!

I can accept [transpeople's] belief in their own gender provided that they accept that I don't believe I have one.

I'm with you on the second part, Jeanne, but not the first I'm afraid. It's good manners, afaics, to honour Caitlyn's new name and call her 'she'. I've never had a problem with that. I'm even happy to help her suss out the walking, talking & dressing side of things - and have done irl. But when she starts telling me she knows all about being a woman; that my feminism's wrong; that her previously masculine existence has no bearing on her womanhood - I do not accept her belief. She's a woman if she likes, but she's not part of the shared experience of 'being a woman' in our world.

And that's not even touching the matter of biological sex, which I do not accept is a coercively assigned gender. The midwife sexes a baby, s/he doesn't gender it. Everyone else does that.

jessica "what is the difference between belief and delusion? I thought it was that belief had no evidence, but delusion had opposing evidence."

I think this is a fairly accurate.
"I am a woman"
"but you are male, you have xy chromosomes, testes and a penis"
" well I am not meant to have xy chromosomes, testes and a penis"
"but there is no intention or meant to in the definition of a male, the word male is simply the physical description of someone with xy chromosomes, testes and a penis and a woman has xx chromosomes, ovaries, womb and vulva/vagina"
"Well you better change the definition of woman to include me then"
This refutation of the evidence is a sign of delusion.

Sorry I don't mean to sound cryptic. I should have name changed so I could explain better.

I mean that I've been in situations where activities are going on where you can talk to other women about whatever while doing the unrelated activity. And people talk in an ordinary way about all manner of things they are interested in. And sometimes they discuss what on here we would call trans activism, and how that is having a negative impact on them, and when they do the volume goes down to a whisper, and the conversations become private, not meant for the whole group to join in with, as if they shouldn't be questioning it or discussing it.

And I've not seen that with other topics, not even really sensitive ones like race, religion and ethnicity.

Sorry, I misread your post. I thought you meant 'experience of a person with delusions'.

Back on the main theme, I wonder if the problem is that I just don't believe in gender. A person who feels that they have a 'gender identity' might finds that offensive. But I really, honestly, don't think there is a link between a person's mind and their sex beyond that which is socialised. So maybe it's not that I don't have the language, maybe I just fundamentally don't agree.

I can accept their belief in their own gender provided that they accept that I don't believe I have one.

I don't want to say under which circumstances (other than not specific feminist ones) but I have seen younger women literally whispering to each other in group situations about the impact of trans politics on them.

But I suppose Jessica it wasn't so terrifying for you, because you weren't drawn in to her delusions? When someone is certified it is tragic, but at least you know where you are, its different when the person functions as normal and other people around you don't recognise that the person is delusional.

under what is the difference between belief and delusion? I thought it was that belief had no evidence, but delusion had opposing evidence. I'm not medically trained though, so I don't know the proper explanations, it's just what I've gathered from everyday life. Is it one of those spectrum things, where there is no clear distinction?

"cafab privilege" - coercively assigned female at birth. Oh, FGS.

under, yes. A relative suffered from the delusion that her carers were poisoning her food. What stuck me was how frightening it was for her. She totally believed that people were trying to kill her and nobody agreed. Utterly terrifying for her, and heartbreaking for those on the outside because we couldn't find a way to ease her pain.

xposting too sorry all
"I thought a delusion was a belief that exists despite proof to the contrary. As it isn't possible (as far as I can see) to prove that another person's mind isn't in the wrong body (as it isn't possible to prove a negative)"

You are setting the bar for diagnosing delusion a bit too high. If someone claims to be an alien from planet Zog who happens to be born to a human mother and father but was transmuted into the uterus by x-rays, you cannot prove this is not true, but the balance of probability, even by simply asking 'how do you know this?' indicates that the person is deluded.

I mean schizophrenic people have all sorts of delusions that can't be disproved. How do we know that the devil isn't speaking to them? We can't prove it.