Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Being silenced/feeling voiceless

367 replies

JeanneDeMontbaston · 26/06/2015 12:05

Can we talk about this?

There were some amazing threads on here a few years ago, about rape and about 'small' sexual assaults, and I remember so many posters saying they'd suddenly found a way to talk about something that had shaped them as people. It seemed really powerful to me. But I was wondering if we're actually going backwards in terms of feeling able to speak up.

I was in a meeting yesterday, and noticing how some women (including me) do that classic 'I don't know if I'm saying this very well' kind of minimising of their own points. I was really struck that someone said 'I need to learn the language to say this' - as if she was being inarticulate, rather than as if people weren't bothering to listen to what she was saying (which was closer to the case).

I keep on feeling this way, especially about all the debates raging around gender identity issues - I just don't have the language to say what I want to say. I can't help feeling as if all of us who disagree are just miscommunicating. Does anyone else feel that? I don't feel as if I have the language to talk about what makes me feel hurt and upset by words like 'cis' - I think it's a real feeling, and I think it is related to sexual violence, but I don't feel very able to put it into words, especially outside MN.

Does anyone else feel like this?

OP posts:
Beachcomber · 26/06/2015 22:13

I don't feel as if I have the language to talk about what makes me feel hurt and upset by words like 'cis' - I think it's a real feeling, and I think it is related to sexual violence, but I don't feel very able to put it into words, especially outside MN.

This sentence really stood out for me. I think you have put it in words brilliantly actually by making the connection between "cisgender" and sexual violence. IMO gender is a hierarchy and a system of control. It is used to subjugate and exploit girls and women and it is inextricably linked to violence against girls and women. Gender is strictly policed and enforced and sexual violence is part and parcel of that. Gender is why we have rape culture and all the rest of it. To my mind calling a woman "cis" is akin to telling her she embraces her sex's oppression and the violence used to enforce it.

I find it a creepy manipulative gaslighty word.

Thanks for starting this thread.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/06/2015 22:02

Euphoria! Embarrassed I didn't think of that...

Original poster
JeanneDeMontbaston · 26/06/2015 21:49

Yes, I think it is the problem.

But, then ... do people who have a gender identity think this isn't the problem? Do they think it's really different for us? Is it really different for us?

OP posts:
UnderThePaw · 26/06/2015 21:47

Its the system that's the problem, and trying to re-define who we are as individuals (our identity) does nothing to change the system, it just disguises it.

UnderThePaw · 26/06/2015 21:44

YY "None of these labels seem to me to touch on the important point, which is that none of us can escape the fact we were born into a society that has already decided how to treat us based on a stereotype."

UnderThePaw · 26/06/2015 21:35

What's the opposite of dysphoria?..
It is sort of like asking - 'what's the opposite of being depressed or deluded'? I suppose it it could be 'not having dysphoria', or 'not having delusions' or 'not having anxiety'.... being of sound mental health maybe? But I suppose the literal opposite would be euphoria..

Original poster
JeanneDeMontbaston · 26/06/2015 21:33

Someone - blackcurrants, I think? - from way back came out with the phrase 'gender agnostic'. Which I love. But I think both that and 'gender meh' suggest that we are unsure what gender is. And I do feel that, but I would like to know how to understand, too.

OP posts:
YonicScrewdriver · 26/06/2015 21:32

gender-happy/gender-dysphoria/gender-meh

equals cis/trans/no prefix?

Original poster
JeanneDeMontbaston · 26/06/2015 21:30

jessica - YY, I agree. I feel a bit frightened. For me I think it's the other way around - I know I am a woman but I don't feel the way some people seem to think you should feel if you are a ciswoman. But if I were to say that, people would think I was trying to take something away from people who more visibly identify as something other than cis.

OP posts:
YonicScrewdriver · 26/06/2015 21:30

gender-happy vs gender-dysphoria vs gender-meh?

Original poster
JeanneDeMontbaston · 26/06/2015 21:29

Sorry, I wrote that so slowly I cross posted.

under, that was a lightbulb post for me, because that is how I have heard people use 'identify' and I never understood it.

But, if I said my identity - how I describe myself to the world outside - were as a masculine-gendered female, how would they know? Would they treat me any differently, seeing me wearing dresses and whatever?

None of these labels seem to me to touch on the important point, which is that none of us can escape the fact we were born into a society that has already decided how to treat us based on a stereotype.

OP posts:
Jessica2point0 · 26/06/2015 21:27

I think I find it a bit stereotyping. Like being a woman means having certain thoughts and feelings, liking certain things. And I'm not a stereotypical woman. Maybe I'm a bit, frightened, perhaps? I don't know the right word. But i think I'm scared that by those sorts of definitions I might not actually be a woman. Which seems insane to me, because I am a woman.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/06/2015 21:26

Oh.

What's the opposite of dysphoria?

Original poster
JeanneDeMontbaston · 26/06/2015 21:26

Sorry, catching up rather slowly.

I should say, I suppose I am 'feminine' (someone mentioned 'feminine' women). I mean, if you saw me in the street, you'd see a woman who is always wearing dresses, sometimes heels, who looks quite feminine. And I like some of the stereotypical 'feminine' things to do. But that isn't me.

I used to get so much praise (as a child) for being a tomboy. I would probably be taken more seriously at work if I were less feminine-looking (and I remember someone on here suggesting to another poster that they needed to dress in a less girly way to be taken seriously Hmm).

I would hate the idea of being called a 'feminine-gendered female' (or 'gender neutral female'). Fine if someone else feels that describes them - but for me, that feels like saying 'we have decided this 'gender' that you are so uneasy about, must describe you. Take your pick of labels within it!' Surely the point is that, no matter how I feel about myself, no one is remotely interested in anything except how I look and how I can be positioned on a spectrum I didn't create. They will treat me accordingly.

I think I am agreeing with yonic, basically.

innocent - thank you for commenting. I don't know either but it's good to know it's not just me.

OP posts:
UnderThePaw · 26/06/2015 21:16

"I'm not sure that gender identity is behavioural stereotyping. I can see how a person might feel their body strongly matched/mismatched their internal picture of themselves. A bit like when you catch sight of the first wrinkle or grey hair in the mirror and it feels wrong, but much stronger and more persistent."

Here you are not describing 'gender identity', but the condition of 'sex-dysphoria'- which is all in the mind. Identity is a step beyond - out of your private internal experience, to how you describe yourself to the world outside.

UnderThePaw · 26/06/2015 21:05

I don't like offending people either Yonic but I think it is dangerous to take on trust that they are describing more than only their subjective internal experience. Otherwise you condone the notion that their subjective internal experiences can tell more about the world than physical evidence and logic.

The reason I go as far to say it is dangerous is because people can have a really potent feelings about lots of things, religion is a good one, but when you abandon evidence and logic to 'strong feelings' you can end up with situations like Hitler holding audiences in the palm of his hand.

Scepticism is essential - it doesn't need to be rude and unfriendly, just asking 'is there evidence for this?', and 'is this logical?'.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/06/2015 20:38

Sorry, Jeanne, I think I've derailed your thread!

YonicScrewdriver · 26/06/2015 20:37

Also, I'm not sure that gender identity is behavioural stereotyping. I can see how a person might feel their body strongly matched/mismatched their internal picture of themselves. A bit like when you catch sight of the first wrinkle or grey hair in the mirror and it feels wrong, but much stronger and more persistent.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/06/2015 20:33

Yeah, I kinda agree with you except I know that there are people who do have that strong feeling so I take on trust their description of it, just as I would take on trust a description of religious faith, IYSWIM.

UnderThePaw · 26/06/2015 20:27

Yonic I don't know what it means to have "gender matching biology" unless you buy into the idea that there is a non-artificial, even biological root to gender(?)

But this flies in the face of logic..
Because if gender is part of biology, then everyone would be clearly gendered according to their sex. But the reality of the situation is that gender has very little to do with biology, since many people are uncomfortable about, or even completely reject their gender role.
Gender is just behavioural stereotyping- I don't see what that has to do with biological sex.

InnocentWhenYouDream · 26/06/2015 20:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/06/2015 20:00

Paw, not really. That's why I avoided using masculine and feminine. I believe that some people have a strong feeling that their gender matches their biology, some a strong feeling that it doesn't, and some no particular feeling about gender (which doesn't mean they can't observe their own biology)

UnderThePaw · 26/06/2015 19:54

"I could strongly identify my gender with my biological sex (cis), the opposite (trans) or somewhere in between"

In this you suggest that gender is somehow bound to biological sex.

The way I see it is that 'feminine' (gender) and 'female' (physical biology) are two different things just like 'masculine' and 'male' are two different things.
It would be helpful if they weren't used interchangeably - eg "she has very feminine breasts" but instead she has female breasts.

UnderThePaw · 26/06/2015 19:46

Because even calling 'feminine' women 'cis' implies that the 'feminine gender' is actually inextricably connected with the female sex. But I can personally vouch for the fact that 'gender-neutral' or even 'masculine-gendered' women are just as female as feminine women, and in my heartfelt opinion, no-one has the right to take that reality away from us.

YonicScrewdriver · 26/06/2015 19:46

I agree re cis. But then I see gender identity as like any other descriptor. So I could be sporty, or I could be lazy, or I could be somewhere in between. I could be graceful, I could be clumsy, I could be somewhere in between.

So I could strongly identify my gender with my biological sex (cis), the opposite (trans) or somewhere in between (no handy word yet but I bet that lots of people are in this group)