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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Being silenced/feeling voiceless

367 replies

JeanneDeMontbaston · 26/06/2015 12:05

Can we talk about this?

There were some amazing threads on here a few years ago, about rape and about 'small' sexual assaults, and I remember so many posters saying they'd suddenly found a way to talk about something that had shaped them as people. It seemed really powerful to me. But I was wondering if we're actually going backwards in terms of feeling able to speak up.

I was in a meeting yesterday, and noticing how some women (including me) do that classic 'I don't know if I'm saying this very well' kind of minimising of their own points. I was really struck that someone said 'I need to learn the language to say this' - as if she was being inarticulate, rather than as if people weren't bothering to listen to what she was saying (which was closer to the case).

I keep on feeling this way, especially about all the debates raging around gender identity issues - I just don't have the language to say what I want to say. I can't help feeling as if all of us who disagree are just miscommunicating. Does anyone else feel that? I don't feel as if I have the language to talk about what makes me feel hurt and upset by words like 'cis' - I think it's a real feeling, and I think it is related to sexual violence, but I don't feel very able to put it into words, especially outside MN.

Does anyone else feel like this?

OP posts:
Garlick · 27/06/2015 20:19

Yes, it's about the body.

This, too.

Humans who were born with a uterus, working or not, and who were born with every appearance of having a uterus, have been and are devalued and, as the OP puts it, silenced. This starts at birth and continues.

Humans who were assigned male at birth have been, and are, valued more highly and afforded more credibility. This starts at birth and continues.

Hence feminism.

NotJustaPotforSoup · 27/06/2015 20:11

You're proving the op's point here, ego.

Though, since you ask, I would differentiate between transwomen and men.

YonicScrewdriver · 27/06/2015 20:06

(I actually think the English language would be better if we had a different word for sex regarding intercourse and sex regarding male/female)

Egosumquisum · 27/06/2015 20:05

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YonicScrewdriver · 27/06/2015 20:04

No, I wouldn't use the word "normal" in that way so it would be nice if you didn't put words in my mouth.

So a powerful sense of being in the wrong body, male/female wise is trans; a
powerful sense of being in the right body, male/female wise is cis and no powerful sense could be a-gender (I have to use gender here because asexual means something else already)

Garlick · 27/06/2015 20:02

Therefore to label me as "cisgender" is to label me as someone who accepts the sex role and sex status society awards my female body. But i vehemently don't accept those things

This, exactly.

Ego, obviously some people feel a mismatch between their body and who they feel they are. I'd go as far as to say this is really widespread - without diminishing trans* issues - but, still, the issue of mind/body sex is clearly a big one.

So, fine. Change. Do what it takes to actualise yourself (as long as it can be done without harming yourself or others.)

If your self-actualisation means choosing to perform female gender in socially stereotypical ways, please don't ask me to support you 'as a woman'. I support your right to individual choice and will honour your chosen identity. I don't support gender stereotyping, however.

Neither will I support claims that identifying as a different gender is enough to alter physiology. Everyone I've told about this in real life goes 'huh?!?' but UK law currently supports this fantasy. I need to clarify that I am NOT anti-trans* or against individual self-expression. I am a pragmatic feminist. In current parlance, that makes me a TERF. So be it. I'm always open to discussion but not to being shouted down.

NotJustaPotforSoup · 27/06/2015 19:59

It's kinda relevant to the op.

Egosumquisum · 27/06/2015 19:58

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NotJustaPotforSoup · 27/06/2015 19:57

Yes, it's about the body.

Do you understand?

YonicScrewdriver · 27/06/2015 19:56

Ok, a powerful sense of being in the right body, then.

Egosumquisum · 27/06/2015 19:55

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YonicScrewdriver · 27/06/2015 19:54

Ego, they aren't directly parallel because straight/heterosexual refers to one type of attraction and gay/homosexual another.

If you don't have a powerful sense of gender either way, aren't you a-gender rather than cis-gender, similar to a-sexual?

NotJustaPotforSoup · 27/06/2015 19:48

OP, I've thought a lot about the miscommunication thing as I have similar thoughts and feelings as you. It's not miscommunication, though. Especially not when one has tried reframing ones point in many different ways. It's just a fundamental difference in opinion, often on subjects where there is no compromise position. In more general terms than the trans issues, the same old dismissal women's voices and subsequent calls of hysteria, stridency or shrillness if pursued apply.

I hear you and understand, if that helps.

Egosumquisum · 27/06/2015 19:47

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laurierf · 27/06/2015 19:35

That's what I've been looking at.

Egosumquisum · 27/06/2015 19:34

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laurierf · 27/06/2015 19:33

Please recommend some sources of information that you think would be helpful in understanding.

Egosumquisum · 27/06/2015 19:32

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laurierf · 27/06/2015 19:26

It's not like there's a shortage of information out there

I'm looking at all sorts of information. Feel free to recommend any sources you want. Why not try to be helpful?!

Egosumquisum · 27/06/2015 19:25

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Egosumquisum · 27/06/2015 19:23

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laurierf · 27/06/2015 19:19

A transgender person is someone who doesn’t agree/identify with the gender they were assigned at birth.

No. That is not what transgender is

I assume that most people understand what transgender actually means. It's got fuck all to do with gender assigned at birth

But hey, why not start yet another fucking thread on stuff you don't really know about

I've been clear about the fact that I don't understand and am trying to find out information so I can understand and not just looking at 'radfem' interpretations but those of transgender people themselves. The definition of a transgender person that has been quoted was taken from this blog: thispostiscissexist.tumblr.com

How else am I supposed to try to understand what, very obviously, isn't clear (how can it be when transgender people disagree?!) without finding information and then discussing it?

Beachcomber · 27/06/2015 19:16

If that is what "cis" means then surely it would be expressed as "cissex" - that is someone who is in accord mentally with the reality of their biology.

As in i have a female body and I mentally know that I have a female body. Fine, don't have a problem with that.

But "cis" isn't short for "cissex" - it is short for "cisgender".

In my experience in trans politics sometimes gender is used when the person actually means "sex" and sometimes it is used to mean "sex role" or "sex stereotype" - I think this confusion is deliberate and dishonest.

Gender just means sex role or status.

Therefore to label me as "cisgender" is to label me as someone who accepts the sex role and sex status society awards my female body. But i vehemently don't accept those things (which is why I'm a feminist, duh).

If people mean "cissex" by "cis" they should say that. But of course they don't because then we might have to examine inconvenient biological realities.

NotJustaPotforSoup · 27/06/2015 18:52

Yes, it's all to do with the body. That's what lots of people have been saying over many, many threads.

Egosumquisum · 27/06/2015 18:43

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