Being silenced/feeling voiceless

Haha, nice pic.
Yes, the good old not giving men enough attention in some way = hating them. Lesbians obviously hate men, by loving women and not wishing to be in a relationship with a man.

It can be hard to talk about things when there aren't words that fit one's own experiences and feelings. There is a book about this, Man Made Language by the feminist Dale Spender - I haven't read it yet though.

Like the cartoon. Off out just now but will come back to the discussion later. Thank you for starting this thoughtful thread.

Forgot to say something. I am increasingly aware of how many men think that they are the centre of women's discussions about ourselves. Yes, we may refer to men or male behaviour when we are talking about something, but that doesn't make them the focus of the subject.

Same goes for the sub set of men that are transwomen; as this thread shows.

Jeanne I'm sorry you are upset.

I understand what you mean (I think). In my case, and I get that it isn't everybody's way, reading books by feminist thinkers helped me.

One book especially which is Right Wing Women by Dworkin (it is available as a PDF). I found it a painful book to read as Dworkin baldly (and brilliantly) homes in on what it is to be a woman in male dominated society. She also talks a bit about language and how even the words available to women to talk about themselves are male dominated and influenced by the male perspective.

Mary Daly is good on this too and I love how she invents the words she needs to in order to say what she wants.

When I first began reading the work of these women (and others such as Jeffreys, Rich, MacKinnon, etc) I was blown away by their incisiveness and sharp analysis, their ability to think and express things that I knew but I didn't know how to say. Partly because I didn't have the words but mostly because I actually found it hard to freely even think my thoughts. In my case this made me very aware of how socialized I am and how compliant and obedient I am. I was practicing (and still am) an Orwellian form of self censorship.

When I first read Right Wing Women I was struck by how radical (in the proper sense) it is. I couldn't believe that it got published, that somebody had allowed a woman to say such things. I wonder if it would get published today actually.

I don't know if any of that is relevant to you but I hope it helps in some way.

There is a collection of free feminist books here radfem.org/

I'm so glad I was busy last night! jeanne, I'm personally really glad you started the thread. It has helped me to find the words to express my feelings. Now I have started to understand how I feel I can start to sort out which feelings are justified and which are things I need to address as being offensive.

laurie, I'm sorry you felt shouted down, and reading through the posts I can see why. As far as I'm concerned there is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning and trying to understand.

The hijack of this thread has kind of proved the point. There are some people who want to keep others silenced and feeling voiceless. Discussing how I feel about my own body and sense of identity is allowed. I am allowed to do it without being attacked. I am sorry if anyone is upset or offended by how I feel about myself.

Cross-posted. There's nothing wrong with rambling around your thoughts & feelings until somebody crystallises them for you, you know! That's what discussions are for

Thank you, Jeanne.

I'm writing this for myself, mainly ...
Personally, I don't feel overly hurt or threatened by patriarchy or sexual violence. This would partly be due to having had to learn assertiveness. It's also partly to do with my feminism, which has become much clearer-cut and has given me language to describe many complex issues quite quickly. And my age - these days I feel more threatened by my disabilities, age and poverty than my sex or gender. Taking an overall view I can't separate those issues from patriarchy, but Feminism's only somewhat interested in them.

The anger you mention is extremely familiar. It's always been evident when feminists speak out. It used to be worse. It was very evident when gay people started coming out en masse. It's associated with race, class and religion, too. Society doesn't like threatened change to what 'society' sees as the natural order of things. The perceived natural order is patriarchal: it favours the fully-abled, heterosexual male; 'western' societies want him to be white and would prefer him to profess christianity. Societies can be extremely vicious towards perceived threats to this order, certainly going so far as to kill. So it's reasonable to feel anxious about speaking up!

But societies can be flexible and they do adapt. (Whether "The Patriarchy" does is another matter, dependent on how it's defined.) Adaptation comes after long, hard negotiations. Those are never easy: they involve a lot of bitter words; there is fighting; there are standoffs, over-adjustments and re-entrenchments. We can't expect it to be nice or easy. And, if we want change, we have to go for it!

Sorry Jeanne

About the woman I mentioned, who was saying she couldn't be a lesbian because she was attracted to women's bodies not women as a gender

Jeanne, I'm truly sorry you've felt upset by your thread. I think I understand it.

I'm afraid I don't feel that, on this thread (or several similar ones) your topic and the transwomen thing can be separated, because our ex-favourite transwoman has been all over it telling posters what they were trying to say. And getting it 90% wrong, but not listening to corrections, so it ended up being an illustration of the problem.

Wrt your friend - that's also related to trans* issues. Before gender became as important / more important than biological sex, "I'm sexually attracted to women" was a clear statement. Now it feels necessary to clarify whether one specifically means "to biologically female women", it feels more complicated. Worse, it can be made to feel wrong - exclusionary or discriminatory, as if sexual preference were a political choice. It's not so surprising that this accusation is more often levelled at women than men.

That particular issue, though, is limited to a small sector of society. Most people recognise that folks have sexual preferences: bulky rugby-player men or slender ones; tiny, delicate women or soft, rounded ones; black; blonde; Latin; Asian; younger; older; male; female ... there's no end to them! Any preference is valid, as long as it's legal.

Men have been telling women they shouldn't have preferences ever since the first woman said "sorry, you're just not my type."

This doesn't mean your friend has to listen to them

And, yes it's about the body. On that we can all agree.

Quite, beach.

Why male bodied people not fitting into masculine stereotypes has become a feminist issue is beyond me.

Women are not "not men". What's the problem with that?

And I bet I get deleted for saying that.

I bet I get deleted for saying a simple truth.

Because it is a truth that women are no longer allowed to say.

Men eh. I suppose that's your word for transwomen?

But hey. there's no transphobia on FWR is there. Just people calling transwomen men.

I'm sick of this.

Yes, if you push me to say it, I will. Transwomen are male, they are men.

And that simple statement of fact is not transphobic, it is not hatred, it is not an attack, personal or otherwise, and it is not an insult or a judgement.

Ego, I didn't know until your last couple of posts who you were. Therefore anything I have said has not been a personal attack on you.

Heh, whatever.

You talk about empathy and "it's about the body" whilst slating women who totally get that it's about the body because that's why they are fucked off with men appropriating women's bodies

Ironymeter on 10!

Can you engage on the body thing? I really want to understand why not wanting a man's body means being a woman. Is it because you feel that's the only other option open to you?

I know you think that no-one understands. I'd love to, but I've asked you these specific questions before in the effort to do so, but I think I might be typing in white.

Again, no one has attacked you personally.

"I suppose some posters on here want to use the word normal and abnormal to describe women and transwomen,"

These are your words, Ego. Not the words of anyone on this thread.