Being silenced/feeling voiceless

It is good manners to hold doors open for people and not make personal remarks. Agreeing that human males are in the social, political and biological class "female" is not good manners, it is either subjugation or humouring.

laurierf
yy - though I still find the thoroughness of male sexual entitlement beggars belief. I am astonished that the writer is so amazed by the female-born's patience and ability to rationalize frequent dismissals ie- lack of sexual entitlement. To me it is obvious that no-one is morally obliged to fancy me or have sex with me - why is it not obvious to the born male ffs?

LurcioAgain
it's all about your personal preference in which genitals you want to fit your genitals to
It is so weird that because some people suffer from sex dysphoria or GID, no one, according to that thinking, is allowed in all good conscience to be lesbian, gay or straight any more. It is such a retrograde step for lesbian and gay rights and women's rights.

"Making assumptions, they seemed very concerned with the presence, appearance and shape of genitals" - quote from Huff Post may not be word for word as I'm on phone. But when I read stuff like this I feel like I've fallen through the looking glass. I find myself wanting to scream something very rude along the lines of "but that's the fucking point of fucking you fucking idiot - it's all about your personal preference in which genitals you want to fit your genitals to!"

there has been no group of 'transmen' organising an equivalent conference to 'The Cotton Ceiling'

Well, yes, I suppose the guy who wrote the article about transmen's acceptance (or lack thereof) in the male gay community said:

After these conversations, I wasn't surprised to listen to transgender gay men's narratives of rejection. What amazed me was their patience and ability to rationalize frequent dismissals

laurierf
"But do you think non-homphobic men whose automatic stance would be 'live and let live' would show a similar sort of variance in opinion that we see, say, here on MN, to trans theory once the details and implications are laid out?"

I find it too hard to speculate - its a patriarchal society, all males including consciously non-homophobic ones are raised to have male entitlement and 'live and let live' can often bring a lot of unconscious anti-woman assumptions and blind-spots - ie- it often translates as 'promoting the 'divine' sex 'rights' of males to sexually access who they like, how they like and when they like, as long as access has been been rubber stamped with crude notions of consent' (also where 'lack of consent' is a matter for constant query and debate). Women more commonly focus on restricted sexual access for males in order to protect against abuse.

I doubt men would be so impassioned - because it does not affect them so much - there has been no group of 'transmen' organising an equivalent conference to 'The Cotton Ceiling'. Women and FTT, I just don't believe, would be half so pushy and threatening, they can't physically overpower males, I doubt they would dominate the male equivalent MN and have hissy fits when they are not being pandered to. And men have not been socialised pander to them the way women pander to MTT. I think whether transmen are real men, or whether straight women or gay men are transphobic for not fancying them would be non-issue to most men.

I think the passion men show is through homophobia as I suggested before and also chivalry "How dare other men think they have the right to go in the same toilets as my wife, my daughters, etc.

Also the MRA's we know actively promote hostility against radical feminists, so I think they would still be around for the 'TERF'-bashing.

So I think the range would be more about the male 'right' to get off however he likes versus - 'no that is just perverted' and less about feminism versus transgenderism, by the underpinning misogyny and Patriarchy would still be there.

Of course you do get a small minority of genuinely pro-feminist men who would be there I hope, flying the flag for women's rights, but I fear they wouldn't.

under

I agree re shitstorm

And even if there are bits of the article that weren't very good, there are still a fair few "yes" bits. So I'll keep the badge

He's (unsurprisingly) also extremely homophobic and I suppose falls into this category

the problem a lot of men have with transgenderism is that it makes them feel sick - it is a homophobic terror

But do you think non-homphobic men whose automatic stance would be 'live and let live' would show a similar sort of variance in opinion that we see, say, here on MN, to trans theory once the details and implications are laid out? ie. some feeling very opposed to it (rather than transpeople themselves) and some thinking that was terrible transphobia?

Here's an article suggesting that gay men are expressing similar ranges in attitudes to the question of whether a gay transman is a gay man: www.huffingtonpost.com/renato-barucco/transgender-people-strangers-in-gay-land_b_5522288.html

When I switched to offline conversation, things didn't get better. I asked gay men whether they had dated or had sex with trans guys, or if they would…. otherwise brilliant men, couldn't even grasp the question

Yes, because it isn't necessarily a simple concept to grasp...

Hah, I wish I'd re-read it before posting now. I think I was just overjoyed to see someone else calling out the mass fantasy!

I'm not surprised it felt dirty agreeing with him - the guy is clearly no feminist. Here's a lovely anti abortion piece from him:

themattwalshblog.com/2013/10/29/its-time-to-end-the-stigma-of-infanticide/

Neo-liberals are only neo-liberals as long as they can hide from their own reflections. It tells you that abortion is a wonderful expression of a woman’s “right to choose.” But killing newborns? That’s totally different! Or killing a pregnant woman? That’s clearly double homicide! Let’s stop this madness. Turn the lights on. Neo-liberals, like mold, need darkness to thrive. So turn the lights on. You want legal infanticide? OK, have it your way

Anyway, I don't agree with him on this point about Jenner:

For my part, I agree that a man can never lay claim to womanhood. I also agree that there is such a thing as a female brain and a female soul — and by extension female emotions and female personalities and female characteristics — but the trouble is that female brains and souls are always contained securely in female bodies. A man will never be born with a sloth’s heart or a rhino’s liver or a birch tree’s root system, just as he will never be born with a woman’s brain

Female brains giving rise to female emotions and female personalities? Female bodies possessing female souls?

I can't believe I spelled know as no apologies

agreeing with him felt "dirty".

Why does it seem to matter more if a man has these problems with the extreme end of MTT? Do I have hand my feminist badge in now?

This sort of relates to the OP. Because men are more able to 'tell it like it is', like in the Blaze article, without being silenced, they don't have to shroud everything in apologies and skirt around the issues,whilst falsely believing they don't have the language to describe what they know to be true - they can call a spade a spade - because they no they can do it without comeuppance.

Imagine the shit-storm if a woman had written that very same article...

"Usually it would be offensive and sexist to accuse a woman of acting like, thinking like, or feeling like a woman." - Is this the part that bothered you, 0x?

no it was who said it that worried me, it looked like a website i would normally swear at and call all sorts of rude words.
So to be agreeing with him felt "dirty".

rufus
I don't know how to phrase this but women complaining about trans activists can appear to be...ahhh fuckit I can't think of a word...mean, jealous, selfish, not wanting to share, TERFy....dunno

But the sad thing is that women complaining about anything will be stereotyped - seen as shrill, uppity, unfeminine, etc.. Think of Mary Beard getting narked for being described a 'whining' when she simply said she was 'gob-smacked' about the virulent misogyny about her online.

Its part of the infuriating thing about patriarchy. When men, especially white, straight, middle-classed, etc men speak - a metaphorical hush duly descends as we all bend to listen.

So I do not propose men step in to protect women from seeming 'terfy', but to provide us with the anonymity to protect us from being sued, losing our jobs, or being no-platformed for our entire lives, being harrassed, sabotaged, threatened or attacked, etc.

I know that would be so 'knight in shining armour' - what a whole can of worms that would open up!

And the problem a lot of men have with transgenderism is that it makes them feel sick - it is a homophobic terror that they might 'accidentally' fancy a bloke, worse get off with one and discover a dick ... and even worse realise that they like it

Perhaps tapping into male old-skool sexist chivalry and homophobia can be manipulated to the advantage of women for a change?

Sorry I hope its obvious I am now jesting.

Thee should be these obviously

I've not gone all Shakespearean.

I really liked that article

I don't know how to phrase this but women complaining about trans activists can appear to be...ahhh fuckit I can't think of a word...mean, jealous, selfish, not wanting to share, TERFy....dunno

If men complain?????

Would it help to have more male allies on this...does it feel a bit more like coming to our rescue? Why does it seem to matter more if a man has thee problems with the extreme end of MTT

Do I have hand my feminist badge in now?

"Usually it would be offensive and sexist to accuse a woman of acting like, thinking like, or feeling like a woman." - Is this the part that bothered you, 0x? I read it as an acknowledgement of women's personhood - that we are not, or shouldn't be, defined by gender.

He put it badly, but the remarks prompted thoughts in my mind of "Just like a woman!" (meaning silly) and "Women can't be scaffolders" type of thing. Not that calling a woman a woman would be insulting.

I like that article, Paw. He writes like the old me!

Having woken up in a more optimistic mood, I'm wondering if this may not be bad thing for feminism in due course. It's making us - or some of us? - think more deeply about what it means to be a woman: collectively, personally, pragmatically and existentially. This hasn't happened much since the 1970s and maybe it's overdue.

So - right back to your OP, Jeanne :) Are you feeling any differently since you wrote it?

from the balze article "After all, according to mainstream feminist wisdom, there is no such thing as a “female brain” or a “female soul” or “feeling like a female.” By the words of every liberal who has ever said anything on the subject of women’s rights in the past four decades, how you dress, look, think, and feel have nothing to do with your womanhood. Usually it would be offensive and sexist to accuse a woman of acting like, thinking like, or feeling like a woman."

now i am really really confused, this doesn't feel like a source i should be agreeing with

morning microferret
I wonder if we could try to meet a middle ground with the trans community by suggesting we approach the issue the same way society approaches religious tolerance

Yes, but importantly, one that separates between the 'church' and state. Because current trans 'fundamentalist' laws are being passed in the name of progress, which make it a very treacherous path to go down.

I wonder if at some point we'll be able to consolidate it into a movement of some sort... I'm probably dreaming though. The second you publicly state any opinion on this you're instantly silenced as a bigot. And threatened with rape. And violence. And doxxing.

I am coming to the conclusion, although this issue really concerns feminists, that because men (especially white, middle-class, etc males) are not being targeted by trans fundamentalists (probably because it is both too challenging to knock men down from their privileged position and also doesn't produce a delightful misogynist thrill, like terrorising and bullying 'dissenting women' into silence) that I think we should have a 'shield of white men' to hide behind, they have so much less to lose than us. I mean, look at how blunt men can be www.theblaze.com/contributions/calling-bruce-jenner-a-woman-is-an-insult-to-women/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=story&utm_campaign=ShareButtons so different from all the tiptoeing around and treading on eggshells women have to do. These men can publish our anonymous words to get the debate going.

I know this is a radical idea and I am not sure if I am genuinely suggesting this or so angry about the injustice of it that I'm just being subversive.

I wonder if we could try to meet a middle ground with the trans community by suggesting we approach the issue the same way society approaches religious tolerance. Atheism and Christianity are two ideologies opposing one another. Neither is completely provable (though one is more evidence-based than another), so both are classified as beliefs. People are free to believe whichever ideology they choose. Even if it contradicts someone else's entire world view and sense of self, you should be free to believe what you feel to be true and to state those beliefs without becoming a pariah. It is possible to debate against religion or atheism without being accused of hate speech.

Trans ideology seems to be a new sort of religious fundamentalism, and challenging it gets a fatwa put on your head. The fact that this is taking place under the guise of progressivism is bitterly ironic.

Morning guys, I don't know if any of you have read this article by Miranda Yardley (a trans woman who is gender critical, and, apparently, staggeringly self-aware) but it describes the very essence of our problem - not just feeling silenced, but actually being silenced. Definitely worth a read www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/08/kellie-maloney-newsnight-and-debate-transgender-community-refused-have

Just realised that I addressed you all as "guys" instead of ladies...

Am getting a lot out of this debate. I wonder if at some point we'll be able to consolidate it into a movement of some sort... I'm probably dreaming though. The second you publicly state any opinion on this you're instantly silenced as a bigot. And threatened with rape. And violence. And doxxing. God... trans activism is basically just GamerGate in a badly fitting dress.