Rebutting the Straw Men/Owning up when "it's a fair cop, guv.

Straw man argument, I think

Me : We need to reduce the budget for communications within the company. We can't afford it.

Person 1: But we use mobile phones to make sure staff are safe when out on a job. Are your saying you don't care if staff are assaulted?

Person 2: I can't agree to anything that puts staff in harms way. I'm really shocked you would even suggest it. Aren't our staff important to you?

Me : Communications isn't just mobile phones but we do need to reduce the budget.

Person 1: I can't believe you care so little about our staff being assaulted. It's all about money not people....

I think that is an example. A question or point is made and another person makes an assumption then argues about that and places that assumption on another person. In reality that wasn't what the conversation is about.

ifyourehoppy - women assault and murder women too.

"Oh, come off it. It's hardly a feminist point if you believe it isn't only men.

Be brave enough to admit you don't know everything."

I honestly don't know what you mean here.

All people have the biological equipment to sexually assault other people.

I am sorry you were assaulted.

Yes, that's it in a nutshell.

Being feminist and coming up with unpleasant views which you refuse to be challenged on is a choice. Being a man isn't.

LEM, I think straw man gets used more as a slang term in philosophy. Aunt Sally is a more every day term for the same thing that I have heard people say.

It just means to make out that someone has made up an argument that cannot be defended, and then you knock the argument down.

^typos. Typos everywhere.

So some feminists say things you don't like are aggressive and all the word feminism becomes dirty and bad.
But men (as a class) assault, rape and murder women daily and people fall over themselves to point out NotAllMen.

Right.

I've always thought that a straw man was just a someone stating a "fact" without any evidence to back it up.

So if i argued vehemently that Father Christmas was real? that would be a straw man?

It doesn't give anyone the right to accuse a gender of being predisposed to a particular type of violence. Unless, I should say that all of your daughters could grow up to be violent perverts because I met one once who was a woman too.

Isn't an Aunt sally one of those fairground ladies like on Worzel gummage?

None the wiser if im honest.

I like men - does that make me bad? Is that what i should be aiming for?

Original - straw man is a debate term I think. It just means a false argument so if you say you are pro life and I present a false argument such as all pro life people support abortion in all circumstances so you must therefore support law term abortion on the basis of sex you could call out my argument as a straw man. Something that looks like a real argument but is a straw man not a real one. I've now made you defend law term sex selective abortion even though you may not agree with it. Does that make sense? There's probably a better way to explain it.

"Myths about feminism" sounds like a good title.

Ms I don't think anyone is saying that women can't be abusers. But that sexual violence is a hugely gendered issue.

I still would like to know what victim feminism is if someone can answer it.

Oh, come off it. It's hardly a feminist point if you believe it isn't only men.

Be brave enough to admit you don't know everything.

Almond- the first part of your post is what I'm trying to get at. Ordinary people do extremely horrible things to each other for a number of reasons.

There is always that thing to say the nazi ( or murderers or whatever) must be monsters. I don't think they are, ( they committed acts of monsters maybe) just ordinary people who for whatever reason did terrible things.

"only being men that are sexually predatory."

Again, no one said "only". That is a straw man!

LEM, a straw man is also sometimes called an Aunt Sally. Maybe you've heard of that?

It is when people claim you are arguing something you are not arguing, and then explain why the thing you never argued is wrong.

Ha, me too LEM
I really interested in feminism and participate in some feminist activism and could be called a radfem but I don't feel smart or perfect enough.
It doesn't stop me from posting a lot though.

A straw man is where I construct an argument, say that that is your position and proceed to argue against it, without first checking that it is your position.

So if I said "LEM, let me just disagree with your positiob

I actually think straw man is the wrong title for this thread (sorry Lurcio!) and maybe "myths about feminism" or something would be better.

I came to see if anyone would be willing to admit any fault and am unsurprised to see that it's simply an iteration of the we're right and you're wrong story.

By the way, I was once molested by a much stronger girl at a party many years ago. So you can drop all this nonsense about it only being men that are sexually predatory.

I certainly am.

And no I don't particularly. All men could be rapists because they have a penis but they doesn't men all men WILL commit rape. Like I said up thread, I believe all people have it in them to kill someone but that doesn't mean everyone will. Hope that makes some kind of sense.

It's how you perceive the language used I guess.

I think there are two ways people use the 'men are potential rapists' line:

1. In war time situations, and situations where ordinary customs break down, very many men who ordinarily would not become involved in rape and other atrocities do so. In that sense, rape is a weapon of war. So it is important from a humanitarian perspective to understand the combination of obeying authority and othering people that causes people to lose empathy and why for men in particular this frequently in war turns to acts of mass rape. In that sense, all men are potential rapists in the same sense that we are all potential Nazis. It isn't some implausible scenario. Huge sections of societies have become involved in collaborating in atrocities, and they were ordinary people. And rape in war and genocidal situations is part of the understanding of rape internationally.

And I don't think I can be alone in wondering if I were a German citizen in the thirties, how would I have behaved? It is a question prompted by many TV shows and forms of media, including kids' TV shows like Dr Who. I don't think it is particularly different for men to ponder on how they would behave in situations where people were being sexually victimised. And sometimes that applies to women too.

1. In everyday civil society, when women are raped, many people will say, you shouldn't have got a lift from your friend John, gone out to the pub with that man, stayed late at work with your boss etc. That gives the impression that we are supposed to be behaving at all times as if friend John, our male boss and every other man are potential rapists.

I must be really stupid, i don't really know what a feminist is and a straw man? All i can think of is Edward woodward in the wicker man and its not a good thought at all.

Im just not intellectual enough for these boards.

Actually, that is my problem with feminists, they make me feel REALLY stupid.