Rebutting the Straw Men/Owning up when "it's a fair cop, guv.

Feminists don't believe the patriarchy is out to get you. I'm not sure how you've picked up so many odd things Lass. Are you interested to know what feminism actually is or are you convinced it's not for you?

Being a woman is brilliant.

Being treated as a woman in society less so. As Yonic says, people tend to post about niggling sexist things, or huge sexist thing that they've experienced. This is a feminist discussion board, feminist analysis is par for the course. That you violently disagree with feminism is obvious, Lass, but surely even you can see that if people post here, they will do so from a feminist PoV, in the same way as the Litter tray posters post from a cat loving PoV, or Legal posters post appropriately for that board. It's the nature of the beast.

Wellll the nature of MN (and, y'know, humans) is that people tend to post when they have issues and problems. So in Relationships, there's the odd " post something nice your DP did" thread but mostly it's about points of contention.

There's plenty of chilled chat in the pub and the odd "appreciation" thread (which sometimes get criticised as well!) in FWR but yes, mostly people post when they've spotted some sexism and want to discuss it. Not the same as thinking it's awful being a woman!

Callin for me the overriding tone of feminism as depicted on FWR is it's bloody awful being a woman, what with the patriarchy being out to get you; posts like the one above implying women who succeed are colluding with the patriarchy; the need, apparently, to run a feminist analysis on everything you do or wear or watch or read. The constant moaning that no-one values women.

Well, the thread is about straw men, Cailin...

Who said being a woman was a miserable existence? I'd be interested to read the thread or the book that says it.

"transwomen" (bloody phone)

The way it's described on here often makes it sound awful,to the point that the antagonism radical feminists have for transom end surprises me.

Why are they giving up being a man for a state which seems to be such a miserable existence?

I don't get the idea from feminism that being a woman is terrible, but if you do then I can see why you'd reject it.

Callin I reject many of the sweeping generalisations made by some feminists about how terrible it is being a woman.

Thread discussing a book on whether appearance matters. Just skimmed the first page but no hyperbole in sight there.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1288199-Catherine-Hakim-Honey-Money-The-Power-of-Erotic-Capital

" I often see on here about appearance being the only thing of value"

Again, you and I have taken away a different interpretation, Lass. I think statements on here are usually about relative importance not the hyperbole that you seem to see.

I get the impression you don't agree with feminism Lass, is that case?

You know the more I think about it thisisnots comment is patronising and sexist.

Yes but that does not then logically follow to the hyperbolic statements which I often see on here about appearance being the only thing of value and the like or girls are told the only important thing is being pretty.

And as for appearance and polticians no one has ever of course commented unfavourably on a male MP. Except they do. For example it is almost impossible for a detractor of Osborne to write anything about him without commenting on his looks (weird baby face is the usual one) or Milliband and they are by no means the only ones.

In addition, people tend to comment on how pretty little girls are, and how lovely their clothes are, far far more than they comment on boys' looks, which is another thing that gives girls the message that how they look is important.

"I can't recall if it's been said on this thread but I also find the complaint that what women are valued most on is our looks or we get told the most important thing is to be pretty and variations on that theme. It bears no resemblance to the real, humdrum world we live in. And frankly is a bit insulting to men and women's intelligence."

The way I see it, constant adverts about make up, hair colour, anti-ageing serum, etc do tell women that their looks are extremely important. Also, if you ever read about women in politics, or in any sort of power, the constant focus is on how they look. Have you not come across that?

There's nothing wrong with an individual woman conforming to gender stereotypes.

The gender stereotype for women is being feminine.

People with masculine attributes are not better, more liberated, more ethical or more free thinking than feminine people.

I think it's important to be able to question any school of thought - after all, if the first feminists hadn't questioned the status quo, where would we be?

I find the idea that women are brainwashed by the patriarchal society we live in off-putting - I think most woman recognise that there is a ways to go before gender equality is achieved.

I also don't feel that success goes hand-in-hand with conforming to gender stereotypes. I do think that being successful and being perceived as being successful is so much harder for a woman - I can think of many examples where woman have broken through the glass ceiling only for it to be implied that they are letting down their family by (eg) going back to work too early after maternity leave, working longer hours, using childcare etc in a way that would never be spoken about if they were a man. This is the viewpoint that needs to be challenged, in my opinion.

Thisisnot's post is also something I disagree with.

In fact it is an illustration of one of the examples I gave at the start of the thread of issues many women have with feminism that are not straw men.

Yops yes. Well put. Your trade union analogy worked well in my view.

The comment from thisisnot had me bristling with irritation.

I can't recall if it's been said on this thread but I also find the complaint that what women are valued most on is our looks or we get told the most important thing is to be pretty and variations on that theme. It bears no resemblance to the real, humdrum world we live in. And frankly is a bit insulting to men and women's intelligence.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone deriding the Suffragettes, or the Dagenham Ford workers, or those who introduced the equal pay act or anti-discrimination legislation. Now that would be slating feminism.

What I see on here that get's women's backs up about feminism are comments like 'I think they are institutionalised by the patriarchy'. It implies two things. Firstly, that they aren't as smart or enlightened as you. Secondly, that feminism is the only way to achieve equality in society. I don't see that calling out a comment like that is an attack on feminism. It is simply disagreeing with a certain mindset.