Rebutting the Straw Men/Owning up when "it's a fair cop, guv.

Briar, it doesn't need to be that all feminists share the same opinions.

There just need to be enough feminists who have a negative perspective on various things - like femininity for example, to make women not identify with feminism.

Whether or not I identify as a feminist depends on the position of the person or people I am talking to. It is clearer to say I support women's human rights as currently stated by the UN.

I don't agree with most feminism I see online. Most of the lib fem stuff online seems quite contrary to women's human rights.

Agree with Mrshathaway - I appreciate this thread is to rebut some of the misconceptions surrounding feminism, but there are real issues on the other thread too.

One of the things I mentioned on Bert's thread was that I don't feel like a victim, I refuse to behave like a victim, I am not afraid of men and I do not regard all men as potential rapists.

By the way, is there/will there be a thread about the reasons people gave which aren't based on misunderstandings or fallacy?

Soapbox, because there are other countries where any person/any family member can be a second person who takes the paid leave.

In single parent families in the UK, the most common situation is a single mother who relies upon a person other than the father to do unpaid child care.

Making paid childcare available to those other people makes a difference to if a single mother can work or not, what jobs she can apply for, how much flexibility she can have. Making those payments only available to two parent families reinforces heteronormativity and puts women (including single parents) in the position of having to privately negotiate with fathers, rather than other forms of support.

It very much fits in with the whole, 'well women should make their partners do child care/clean the loo etc.' that crops up on here.

The thread where (almost) everyone's agreed not to attempt to rebut arguments? That'll work.

Following this with interest as I am a feminist but not a Feminist iyswim although I have just given a small girl a birthday present that is deliberately unisex but I'd remark that "this is obviously not true" is denying not refuting and doesn't teach us anything.

Another strawman is that equality has been achieved and that feminism is no longer necessary....

SORRY I was talking about this thread on the other thread

Where is the thread with proper discussion?
I understand the point of this thread but since no discussion was allowed here and a few things said on this thread seemed to be based on misunderstandings the other FWR thread was started.

I agree it's the best to have an actual proper discussion.

I knew it. I knew this would happen. A thread already about how all of those who don't identify as feminism are "wrong". We're just different. Can't you get your heads round that?

Big, the reason this thread has been started separately is because the OP of the other thread asked for that to be just statements!

it's threads like this that put me off this whole thing.
Come on the other thread and talk about it instead and then we can have a proper discussion.

Yops
I think most feminists agree that men's greater tendency to violence is in large part a product of socialization.

Some say it's only because of how boys are raised, others say it's more than that.
It's hard to know how much is nature vs nurture, and there is no agreement on this AFAIK.

almond I don't think all feminists want motherhood for themselves and society pushes them into it. The reaction to that is that they don't value it/push against it in the same way that a non-academic kid in a very academic-focused family might say that's rubbish and not as meaningful as working with your hands.

An equal society would not have this issue. I realise that not all feminists are interested in improving the lives of mothers, but generally it seems like feminists are asked to care about all women's issues and I think there are too many for any one person to effectively work on all of them.

Sorry. Genuine question. How does paid paternity leave disadvantage single parents?

almond which makes me think of the idea that...

All women who call themselves feminists share the same opinions

Nope!

Lots of feminists don't value traditionally female jobs, or femininity, or motherhood. I've seen that many, many times, and not as a derailment.

Another one mentioned - feminism doesn't value single mothers or older women. These are also true - most people on here supported paid paternity leave despite its advantage to couples at the expense of single mothers. Feminism being mostly about younger women - absolutely the case across most online feminist sites.

Feminists, at least radical feminists, understand that men and women are biologically different.

Would these differences explain why men have a greater tendency to violence?

Feminists believe that there is no difference between men and women

Feminists, at least radical feminists, understand that men and women are biologically different. Some things are obvious, like anatomy, genitals, ability to produce sperm or give birth to children.
In other cases, society plays a role in making existing differences larger - like physical strenght - girls are not encouraged to get strong the way boys are, girls being encouraged to go on diets.
In other cases it's debatable if a natural, non cultural difference exist at all. For example, if men are naturally better at technical things, and if women are just naturally better at multitasking.
Feminists also believe that women are opressed because of our sex, our ability to bear children.

Feel free to correct me/add something.

Double standards

I agree that a male poster, particularly a new male poster, often gets a bit less slack cut than a new female poster in eg relationship threads.

I disagree that the majority of that different treatment comes from feMNists; I think it's an MN wide phenomenon. I also think that many many female OPs unconsciously minimise in their first few posts and regular MNers often adjust for this with follow up questions.

Feminists don't value traditionally female tasks

Things like childrearing, cooking, caring jobs. As if feminists are solely concerned with women in high office or on boards. I think this mainly occurs because a conversation about one thing is interrupted and derailed. So if a group of women want to talk about the obstacles they faced getting top academic positions someone will always say 'what if the woman wants to stay at home and raise children?' And if the answer is that isn't being discussed now, this is a specific conversation about 1 thing that means 'we don't care about those women - being a sahp isn't a feminist choice'

I would imagine a more feminist society would value the tasks traditionally done by women, and they would be undertaken by both men and women. These jobs would also be paid more and not seen as menial. Just as we'd see more women in traditionally male fields. Clothes and toys would be just clothes and toys - not for a specific sex and people would do what they were drawn to, not what they were pushed into.

Yeah, that's what I thought. I saw a few people on the other thread say that they had a problem with this.