"What makes a women" NY Times article

Loved this article and thought it articulated for me a lot of what I've been feeling about the Caitlyn Jenner story but couldn't quite express.

While I'm all in favour of anyone who struggles to reconcile their biological sex with their gender identity having the freedom to live as they want, I don't understand why so many M-to-F transgender people seem to choose such a narrow vision of femininity. It would be as if F-to-M transgenders decided to sport giant moustaches while operating drill tools and riding monster trucks, as if such a caricature of maleness were the only way to live as a man.

Or is it that the media only covers that angle on M-to-F transitions? There must be plenty of M-to-F transgender women who just live as any other woman does without going in for the dresses and nails and wigs and make-up. Possibly it is because the more cliche M-to-F transgender women are more vocal about their transition? Either way the media coverage of the 'Call Me Caitlyn' story was really over the top. People were falling over themselves to gush about it. I felt it was a little ridiculous. We're talking about a washed-up reality TV star here, after all, hardly Nelson Mandela.

Thank you Mabel. Great article.

Did you see this?

I agree with what the article says, but I know which of the two is more likely to have an impact in the fight against America's endemic sexism / objectification of women. Caitlyn Jenner's choice is a more potent weapon for the feminists than the misogynists.

Great article- I've shared on Facebook.

I think that is right, Mabel. You are very brave.

I was expecting it: I'd seen the abuse that writers on this subject get on Twitter etc. And I'd signed the Observer letter a few weeks previously - in retort, some Oxford students got together and wrote a piece for one of the university papers calling for apologies from the 4 members of university staff who had signed. In a way, my piece was a response to that: everywhere (including in universities, which should be focused on providing genuinely safe spaces for their students) rape survivors are failed by institutions. In such a context, the question of safe spaces is a very emotive, charged one, and survivors' needs must be taken into account. BUT what I wasn't expecting was: (a) to lose personal friends over this, and (b) on a more positive note, lots of private emails of support from people who agree, but are afraid to speak out. That's important, I think. That there are dissenting voices; and very many women who feel uneasy with the direction of travel of third-wave feminism. Increasingly (and I think the NYT piece helped a lot with this), I think that people - even if they disagree with the gender-critical position - are slightly more willing to believe that we're not terrible, nasty 'TERFs', but do have a valid political point. The more people who speak up, even just on Facebook etc, the more that the poison gets sucked from the public profile of gender-critical feminism.

Thank you for popping in to say hi. Your piece was fantastic, I hope the trans backlash didn't affect you too much personally. Out of interest, did you expect the response that you got from transgenderists or did it come out of the blue for you? It's really brave to speak so openly in the media about being raped but even braver if you knew the reaction you were going to get.

Hi all - just wanted to dip in and say hi. I'm not normally on these pages, but I was just reading your thread out of interest (I'd heard really good things about the Mumsnet feminism pages), and I noticed that a couple of you were saying kind things about the piece I wrote for the New Statesman on rape and the definition of 'woman' as it applies to rape support groups. So I just wanted to say thank you for reading (and for defending that position on social media!). xxx

'TERF' is just another version of 'manhater'. Which feminists have been getting called since forever.

'TERF' is slightly more cunning though because the average right on lefty liberal is horrified at the idea that they aren't open minded and inclusive of everybody and everything. They will throw girls and women under the bus in order to fall over themselves to declare the Emperor's nakedness a marvelous set of trendy progressive post-modernist clothes.

Transactivism is very powerful and making a lot of ground because it appeals to both left-wing men and right-wing men and it is a movement by and for men.

Left-wing men get to congratulate themselves on how PC their misogyny is and right-wing men prefer gender bolstering transsexuals to gender nonconforming lesbians and gays. Neither has bothered to notice that transgenderism is a hijacking and appropriation of transsexualism.

Of course both the left wing misogynist and the right wing misogynist would think that you were insane if you suggested that they marry and have a family with a transwoman (even though both swear that transwomen are female). And transactivists are narcissistic enough to fall for all this - they mistake misogyny for true acceptance and support of their delusion.

I posted it a day ago but no likes or comments. I wonder what that means. I really liked it.

It's similar to the reaction to the rape victim querying trans women in support groups, which again was sensitively written, trying to balance conflicting needs, and received vitriol.

Day to day, I don't think most people know what TERFs are.

It's a fucking effective piece of negative branding though, many people are already wary of radical feminism so conflate the two and you increase dislike of Radfems and classify anyone with any questions on trans as a radfem (even if they themselves are trans, cis male or whatever). And even if no "excluding" is actually happening.

Precisely, their only argument is shout TERF and go on about how hurt their feelings are.

Great article, sums up my feelings well. The bit about abortion made me feel quite agitated.

I thought this was a great article as all I have seen in the media about Caitlyn Jenner has been how wonderful she is, how beautiful etc, etc. However, a mtf trans friend of mine who posted it on facebook, has written how outraged she is, what a despicable, trans-misogynist article it is, and one of her friends demanded she put a trigger warning on her posting of it. I really felt like the author of the article expresses her thoughts in a very reasonable and moderate way, and the transgender people, in my fb circle at least, have failed to really engage with what she actually says, preferring simply to argue that they are the biggest victims in the world, thereby confirming much of what the author does say. Interestingly, another of my friends who is married to a ftm trans guy is supportive and open to the perspective of the article, which I think is telling.

I use my sisters Facebook, she's usually happy for me to share and like articles buts she's asked me not to comment, like or post anything trans related because her boss (a nurse) has been all over her feed telling anyone who says Jenner is still male, that they are wrong and trans phobic, that Jenner is now a woman in every sense, and she's worries about repercussions at work. My Mum and sister both loved the article though.

Im surprised but pleased at the shift in views, I was expecting a lot of hate towards "terfs" (I like "wets") but while there has been some, it seems that most comments on articles like these have been the opposite ofvwhatbibwas expecting.

Much better Queen

What about just WET (woman excluding transactivist)?

Great article

Excellent article. I do hope the tide is turning on the more ridiculous assertions of the transactivist movement ("front hole" is just bloody stupid) as women sit up and notice that the rhetoric takes something away from women's issues; it's not just about giving freedoms and rights to trans people (the latter would be ok, the former is not).

Every time I see "TERF" used I really do want to throw "BWETA" back (not catchy I know, but "biological women excluding transactivist" is what people who use TERF are).

I shared this one of facebbok, 3 likes and a comment thanking me for posting

No hate, no death threats, but then my fb is set to private and not that many of my friends are that interested in this stuff...

Great article

I bet she'll get hatemail for daring to write it.

Excellent article. I have shared it.