Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"What makes a women" NY Times article

215 replies

iisme · 08/06/2015 10:30

Nothing very new here but it expresses most of my feelings around the trans debates very clearly and well. I want to put it on Facebook but I know it will kick off a shit-storm and I'm not sure I have the strength ...

mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/what-makes-a-woman.html?referrer=&_r=0

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
almondcakes · 12/06/2015 08:03

You can't deal with any of the major global issues without including women's rights within the solution anyway. We're half the world. Trying to resolve global problems while ignoring the situation for women makes it impossible to solve the problems.

And 2015 is the UN year of changing economies through realising women's human rights. So it is ridiculous to claim that a. there are no rights specific to women, b. such rights place women's issues outside of the economic system or environmental concerns or c. that you can resolve global economic issues while ignoring the fact that women give birth and breastfeed. Good luck with that one when women do most of the world's work.

SweetAndFullOfGrace · 12/06/2015 06:22

It's a convenient moral position isn't it?

Not used to being excluded from things or not listened to...
In any debate about feminism men should take a back seat since they are theorists rather than practitioners...
Yet this does not mesh with the lived experience of a man! You must listen to me!
Oh, I know - I will decide that women's rights are universal and perform some complicated logic to explain why men should care just as much as women, then I can join in!

It doesn't work like that. I appreciate what you're trying to do, it's nice, but it's kind of patronising. Women's issues don't need men to care in order to make them as important as war etc. And I can tell you now, no man will ever care as much about issues like abortion as someone who has had to have one.

FloraFox · 12/06/2015 05:59

If any one of us want to defend universal human rights we don’t get to pick and choose which particular application of those rights we defend.

No I don't agree with this at all, especially not when you seem to have selected a set of what you think are universal human rights.

Canyouforgiveher · 12/06/2015 00:34

Women are different from men, but really not that much different at all. The last thing we should be doing is highlighting the differences between the genders, and should instead be focusing on the commonalities.

Fair enough - how about men took the lead on building on the commonalities. Seeing as history shows that men made the divisions to start with (for their immense benefit).

As a woman, I don't know whether I feel different or not to a man - seems like a silly question in many ways. I also feel different to someone who is Finnish - what does that say about anything?

but my experience of living life as a woman has of course been radically different to that of a man living life as a man, right down to my husband and I having a baby but only one of us (surprise! me) almost dying to produce him.

Pretendinig women and men are the same is nice - but not actually realistic in any way. Or beneficial to anyone.

I love this thread and the original article and I am sick of the thought movement that reduces being a woman to being just like a man and vice versa, just depends on your choice. I have yet to meet a woman (an actual born female and lived famale) woman who believes that for a minute.

And the idea that being female is about nail f-king varnish. I wish.

Italiangreyhound · 12/06/2015 00:11

In fact if women are oppressed due to their ability to reproduce them it is hard to imagine a bigger issue! But plenty of women are also interested in war, climate change etc.

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2015/apr/30/yemen-conflict-end-female-peace-activists-the-hague

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenham_Common_Women%27s_Peace_Camp

www.trust.org/item/20130918055440-fkeoh/

I could go on but I won't....

YonicScrewdriver · 12/06/2015 00:11

"However, these things are matters of circumstance and aren't necessarily linked to the way the male or female brains work"

I agree. I also never stated that the treatment of women as a class by society owing to their uterus possession was anything to do with male/female brain. I don't believe in innate male/female brain.

Your posts are verylong.

Italiangreyhound · 12/06/2015 00:08

You don't enable women to be interested in or involved in bigger issues by taking away or weakening their opportunities to relate to reproductive rights.

Italiangreyhound · 12/06/2015 00:05

I think there is a real danger with labelling a certain gene as the reason people may be violent and therefore possibly assuming it is not people's fault because it's all in the genes!

I am sure there are plenty of men who are not at all violent.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-29760212

almondcakes · 11/06/2015 23:41

Your posts are really long.

Human rights are not something you personally get to make up. It doesn't matter what you think they are. Women do have specific human rights. That was decided by, and is monitored by, the UN.

Thequestforunderstanding · 11/06/2015 23:39

Thinking further about the last point, I see where you're coming from.

Thought experiment: Men have two genes, one for violence and one for peace. Is the violence of men, therefore, genetic? Well, yes. What if we add a third gene that allows the first two to be turned on or off depending on the nature of the particular man's upbringing? Is male violence still genetic? Yes, but now its also societal. In fact, it's predominantly societal because society could turn off the first gene and stop men being violent. So, how do we design society so that we get gene 3 to turn off gene 1? That is the question!

Thequestforunderstanding · 11/06/2015 23:26

Yonic

Yes, that’s the case – book planning stage, and the effect gender plays in the way we think and behave, as individuals and society, and the feedback loops between the various layers of systems that lead to stereotyping. The human brain / mind and how it interacts with other people, with ideas and with people as a whole has always been of great interest to me. Feminism has always played a part in my thinking, as I’m third-generation feminist (old skool) and hope my daughter will be fourth-generation. However, my ideas have wandered far and wide. I’ve gone from blank-slate communism through genetic determinism (along with a brief flirtation with evolutionary psychology), was temporarily caught up by the illusory wonders of neuroimaging, but have now reached the point where I believe we have a genetic ability to wipe the slate clean, providing we’re brought up free from too much social conditioning. That’s the jumping-off point for my novel.

Posting what I did here is a way of trying to clarify things in my head. I used to post on Guardian CiF before it became crap, but have now found MN! Internal discourse only gets you so far because it tends to be very one-sided, and as anyone who writes will know, it helps formulate ideas when you put them down and gives others the chance to point out the stupid bits and the bits that don’t make sense. The trans-woman debate is one I still haven’t managed to form a coherent position on as my libertarian ideals get rather mixed up with the fact that many trans women promote a negative gender stereotype of women. However, I do have ideas on the way rights are split up.

Obviously, only women have abortions. However, the woman’s right to abortion is the same right as my right to get my ears pierced, or the right to not have my foreskin removed, or to not have my hand cut off if I steal, or to wear a condom, smoke, have sex with another man or whatever it is I want to do to my own body or prevent others doing to mine without my permission. The physical act of abortions apply only to women, and it makes sense that women control this, but the principle of the right to abortions is an expression of a set of fundamental, universal human rights. If any one of us want to defend universal human rights we don’t get to pick and choose which particular application of those rights we defend. We defend them all, and that makes abortion everyone’s issue.

Of course, the last thing women need is the patriarchy seizing hold of issues they’ve fought hard to gain control of. That is the risk of removing the “women’s issue” label. However, the way I see it the history of feminism is filled with women fighting to get “women’s issues” to be issues that have to be actively addressed by men too. There have always been “women’s issues” and these issues have usually been swept to one side by men - men are quite happy to have issues divided by gender, as long as they get to decide which sex gets to control which ones. Let women worry about their silly hormones and reproductive organs, let the men worry about the big stuff. In fact, let’s actively denigrate the importance of what matters to women, which we can safely do because these things don’t apply to men.

It seems to me that not that much has actually changed. Women have abortion, rape, maternity leave and men (overwhelmingly) have war, climate change, religious extremism, monetary policy etc. Women are allowed to have control over the reproductive stuff (which most men don’t want to have to think about that anyway) the stuff which means they can cook nice dinners and have the kids clean for when dad gets home, but are largely shut out of stuff that directly effects the “important” parts of the lives of men. Where inroads have been made into the largely male-exclusive areas of life it’s been through the assertion of equality and the elimination of gender barriers, not through hiving off bits of the patriarchy.

Feminism should (to me) be about achieving joint and equal rights, freedoms and responsibility for both men and women at the same time. Men need to think less about how abortion and policy regarding rape is for women and more about how pro-abortion legislation and anti-rape policing derive from rights that directly benefit them as well. Not only this, but if we can get the patriarchy to think of “women’s issues” as universal issues, it helps break the cycle of: “women’s issues” aren’t important because women aren’t important. How do we know women aren’t important? Because they’re overly concerned with women’s issues!".

Women are different from men, but really not that much different at all. The last thing we should be doing is highlighting the differences between the genders, and should instead be focusing on the commonalities.

As for the roots of gender inequality? Hmmm. At a guess I'd say its about controlling resources. I suppose that is about biology, because the resource in question is the woman's reproductive system. And, yes, the greater physical strength of men has given them the ability to enforce the patriarchy. However, these things are matters of circumstance and aren't necessarily linked to the way the male or female brains work. Does this sort of society act as an evolutionary pressure on men to adapt with a specific set of genes that promote "male" behaviour? Possibly. But there are other counter-pressures, such as the need for men to not be violent towards women in general because they'll be killed for raping or beating another man's wife. And in a violent society, the ability to get what you want (as a man) without having to use violence is probably going to lead to genetic success. A gene for keeping wives in line, then? Maybe, but we have lots of other genes that invite us to co-operate with kinsfolk, to protect our assets, to respect those we love and so forth. Some of those are potentially male-only too.

almondcakes · 11/06/2015 23:21

Lightning sprite, your last paragraph... I would give the example that DS's school wrote a lengthy explanation of why gender stereotyping has negative consequences in society, particularly for girls, and then stated a zero tolerance policy on stereotyping and gendered slurs.

So to tackle the gender problem, they had to talk about gender to name and explain the problem.

I think we're in agreement, but I also think that what not mentioning gender means can easily get confused. The same applies with other issues like racism.

Italiangreyhound · 11/06/2015 22:41

Thank you for sharing lightningsprite. Can I ask how you resolved things for you?

I am someone who would normally be affirming of trans people. What has got me worried is the law that says people can identify as any gender. It wouldn't worry me if a woman wanted to identify as a man but I see some real issues with men simply being able to identify as women and have access to women's safe spaces (not for me, I don't feel a huge need for safe spaces but many other women do). I wonder if I can ask, did you feel safe being in any male only spaces?

lightningsprite · 11/06/2015 20:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YonicScrewdriver · 11/06/2015 06:09

Thanks, almond.

Quest, what is the cultural root of FGM if not to destroy women's pleasure in sex and thereby keep her vagina solely for the man she married? I don't think that's innate; after all, it doesn't happen everywhere and isn't an "old" practice in evolutionary terms. We are all born into a cultural set up that has roots in treating uterus owners and testes owners differently.

Italiangreyhound · 11/06/2015 00:45

Thequestforunderstanding re In other words, actively ignoring gender differences by not highlighting the gender aspects of a particular social issue actually does make it more likely sexism will disappear in a puff of smoke.

I don't think anything is disappearing in a puff of smoke! Least of all sexism. Indeed, talking about things disappearing in a puff of smoke makes we think of the Wizard of Oz or fairy tales! (Margaret Hamilton, who played the witch in the Wizard of Oz, who disappeared in a puff of smoke was burnt during filming - playing with fire isn't safe!)

And suggesting feminists ignore gender aspects would be counter productive. Part of fighting against anything is to know what you are fighting against. That doesn't mean any feminists will be forcing their girls into pink or making their boys play with trains! But pretending that society will all become right if we just ignore things is not going to work, IMHO!

almondcakes · 11/06/2015 00:21

And Yonic never mentioned evolutionary psychology or claimed the differences were innate.

I took her to mean that men behave in particular ways now to control women's reproduction to ensure a woman is pregnant with a particular man's child, and the biology of females makes them more vulnerable to certain actions carried out by men.

That is the case now. It is well documented and is central to planning actions to gain equality for women. Whether it was true when we evolved is not particularly relevant.

almondcakes · 11/06/2015 00:11

Thequestforunderstanding,

There's no evidence that ignoring gender aspects of a social issue will make sexism disappear.

Women are the only ones who get pregnant. That isn't likely to change any time in the near future. We need rights that are specific to the group who gets pregnant.

The possession of a particular set of genes (or more to the point a particular biology) is not irrelevant to our human rights. It is simply untrue to say so. There are human rights that are specific to women.

You may not want women to have human rights that are specific to us, but it is untrue to say they don't exist. They do.

HermioneWeasley · 10/06/2015 22:21

Yes, men are impacted by women's reproductive choices. BUT NOT TO THR SAME EXTENT WOMEN ARE!

Holy shit - I cannot believe that there are people here trying to say that men have an equal stake in women's reproductive rights. I mean, that doesn't make sense - they are WOMENS' reproductive rights. The clue is in the name.

yahyahbubblegah · 10/06/2015 21:57

It's a coincidence that the only people who think abortion isn't a women's issue, are MRA's and transactivists, isn't it?

Of course abortion is a women's rights issue. But that isn't to say that it can't also an issue for men. From family experience I can assure you that abortion can be utterly devastating for prospective fathers.

FreudiansSlipper · 10/06/2015 21:52

totally agree with the article

YonicScrewdriver · 10/06/2015 21:45

Quest, I understand from your other new posts that you've joined MN and come to the FWR section because you are a man writing a book about how the brain produces gender typing - is that right?

grumpyuncleR · 10/06/2015 21:41

Here are some useful sources of information for anyone hoping to counter the transgender cult-
gendertrender.wordpress.com/
4thwavenow.wordpress.com/
stoptranschauvinism.wordpress.com/
genderidentitywatch.com/
www.reddit.com/r/Gender_Critical/
www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/

AskBasil · 10/06/2015 21:37

"I'd certainly say that women make up the majority of the most vocal advocates of abortion, but I think the statistics suggest that"

The statistics suggest that 100% of abortions happen to women.

Which of course, is considered a hopelessly transphobic thing to think, in some circles.

SweetAndFullOfGrace · 10/06/2015 21:29

Basil we are oppressing ourselves, obviously. We want to be oppressed.