"What makes a women" NY Times article

I guess I would use the word 'fortunate' instead.

ErrolTheDragon I guess the word 'privilage' is very loaded, isn;t it.

"Nail polish does not a woman make."

HELL YES.

I actually found it ironic that Caitlyn decided that a restrictive corset was the best way to symbolise her gender. As if swapping one set of societal expectations and pressures (to appear masculine) for this one (which sets back the feminist movement by several decades). Fucking insulting IMO.

No one wins a pity competition. I don't think it helps anyone to look for who suffers most at the hands of society. I think we would all be better served by arguing for better treatment for both women and trans women as different groups of people.

Probably an overlapping Venn diagram of problems.

We need safe spaces for women, and we need safe spaces for trans women, though those spaces don't necessarily need to overlap.

Yes, absolutely.

Intuitively wasn't quite the right word - it feels like I instinctively know but it's actually down to learned experience (as I sort of said).

I've been trying to think of an example of female privilege and can't find one which isn't full of holes (for me the achievability and acceptability of paid work:parenting balance genuinely is one, but it isn't for many women and derives from male privilege and values anyway).

But, I'm still willing to accept that I may have some privilege which I'm unaware of.

'without their being aware that was privilege'

I think I have to accept that there may be some factors implicit in being raised as a girl which are a 'privilege' - especially from the POV of MTF trans yearning for full acceptance as a woman.

(If nothing else, maybe 'privileged' in intuitively understanding why many women do need safe spaces - iNickeds list is part of my formative experience, apart from the Yorkshires.)

Yes Italian, I understand what you mean :) I haven't read the article, I'll have a look.

Tying myself up in knots now!

'Not because I want to', doesn't mean I don't want to! It means, because we all deserve human rights regardless of our own thoughts and views on wider issues!

I guess what touched me about the story of these two people was their obvious devotion to their jobs, their love for each other. It is a real human interest story and I didn't want to lose the human part of the story in the wider debate.

Hope that makes sense!

PS re-reading what I just wrote 'compassionate' is the wrong word, I mean fair, just, giving people their human rights. Not because I want to but because they deserve human rights. So sorry if the word 'compassionate' sounded patronising. That absolutely was not my intention.

Hi guys. I am very torn on trans issues. Like a lot of people have said I don't agree with the idea of a female brain and I am unhappy with female only spaces being threatened. But I also want to be compassionate to trans people too. I came across this amazing item and just wanted to share it. It raises all kinds of issues in terms of how to treat people fairly.

www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/opinion/transgender-at-war-and-in-love.html?_r=0

There are two trans thread at the moment on feminist chat and I am posting this one first.

If I get no replies I will try the other.

Please do not let me kill of this thread, please??

BigChocFrenzy I am very sorry to hear about your experiences at school.

yy, Inicked excellent explanation.

An analogy to male provilege is white privilege: yes many white people have shitty lives too, but on average within most countries they (often unconsciously) benefit from being white. Like this:

I'm mixed race and in the 1960s I was the first non-white child at our village primary school. So, on umpteen occasions I was surrounded by other kids (many bigger than me) screaming "wog", hitting and spitting.
This was before Race Relations Acts, so the teachers didn't give a damn. In fact one of them delighted in smacking me and sending me to be caned just for being in school while of mixed race.

Other white folk my age grew up very poor too, but that particular shit they didn't suffer, without their being aware that was privilege.

I was trying to explain what male privilege is to dh. He laughed when I said he had privileges that I don't. For him, he heard the word privilege and thought of money,high social status etc.

I told him it's things like, my mum giving the men two Yorkshire puddings and a pile of meat, leaving the women with one (often none) at Sunday lunch. (Dd wised up to this quickly and intercepts the food before it gets anywhere the men's plates :))

It's my brother being able to stay out til 9 while I had to be in at 7 despite being three years older.

It's spending hours in front of the mirror before going out, because if I did what dh did, fling a shirt and trousers on, I'd be judged massively.

It's not having to repeat yourself several times because you are listened to the first time and not spoken over.

It's being able to walk home alone at night with very little fear.

They might seem like little things to DH, that they are un noticeable, unless you're the one not getting them. He definitely sees what I mean now.

That's why I italicised the word. I know that in the context of 'enjoying privilege' it just means 'possess and benefit from' but the commoner meaning tends to colour it (maybe this is just me) - makes it sound like they've been having a jolly time of it.

Probably a lot of MTF trans people didn't really enjoy male privilege. But chances are they're not the extremist activists.

Yes indeed BigChoc. We are women, we must therefore not have the temerity to question men. Including people born biologically male who have enjoyed male privilege while growing up, even if they don't feel male inside their heads. And who are therefore very used to silencing women, and not very used to getting told that their gender is a reason they can't do something.

On the site stuff thread some posters are complaining our trans threads are "demonising" trans people.

So we musn't be so cruel as to quote scientific research & statistics.

We are demonising if we don't let everyone who claims to be female into womens' safe spaces.

What was irritating was to be told to check my cis privilege. Compared to someone who has enjoyed male privilege most of their life ?
I'm astonished to read that apparently women are now considered privileged.