Caitlyn Jenner is 'too good looking'...

I fail to see how you can make the comment that Caitlyn Jenner looks good, it's easier to look good with surgery to the end conclusion that surgery is desirable and has mass approval. I agree with MyFriends for most people , for most women, there is a pay-off. Not the least of which is the end result in the flesh will often be an unatural tautness which is itself is considered by many to be unattractive.

To be honest I think you're over thinking this. Jenner needed plastic surgery to look like a woman. A woman born with xx chromosomes no matter how plain, no matter how far from conventional prettiness does not need plastic surgery to look like a woman.

The robbing a bank analogy doesn't work really.

Most people do not have the same moral / ethical / social objections to cosmetic surgery as they do to theft.

If people are saying "this person who has had loads of surgery looks great because they have had loads of surgery, I too would like to look that great, I wish I looked like that" then clearly they are approving of the loads of surgery aspect.

I find it interesting that the "fashion" at the moment (moving away from the specific person in the OP now) is to look quite unnatural, in a lot of areas. Botox usually doesn't make people actually look younger, and actually lots of people who have it are young anyway, it makes them look "botoxed" which is a look now. Incredibly white teeth, also. And of course the surgery, it's often not to look like the same person but younger, but to fundamentally change the appearance, in a way that meets an ideal which in itself looks unnatural.

I wonder if fashions will change and more natural looks will come back into fashion again.

Yes it's easier to look good with surgery. No-one extended that to "surgery is desirable". It's like saying it's easy to be rich if you rob a bank .... Not many people think that's desirable. There's a payoff.

I don't fancy changing my looks to that extent, going through pain and expense just for my looks. They're not that important to me because I'm not in the public eye and the people around me judge me more on my personality and what I have to say than my looks. If your career and the way you are perceived by people who don't know you is dependent upon your looks, it's a different matter.

That aside, I find it interesting that a lot of the commentary on this picture is well anyone could look that good with lots of surgery. As if it is desirable to have lots of surgery, if the result is you look good, and by good it's significantly younger than you are and meeting a specific western ideal of feminine attractiveness.

Whole thing's awful. It's shit for loads of different groups of people! racist, sexist, ageist, this is what images like this reflect of our society and everyone says Wow Great!

I have been judged on my looks many many times.

My children are female and conventionally pretty (blonde, big blue eyes, slender) and people react to them and pay them compliments based on that, as they did with me.

Men will say stuff to you on the street, shout stuff at you, and so forth giving their verdict (positive or negative) of random women they see about the place.

Images of attractive women are used to sell everything, magazine covers point at female celebrities and whether they are passing or failing in being attractive in that particular moment, in a way that does not happen nearly as much for men. My free paper on the train (which I no longer read but struggle not to over people's shoulders - why are things other people are reading much more interesting???) feature women in various levels of undress throughout as decoration basically, noting to do with the news.

Look at an event like the Oscars - look at the images of the men and women on the red carpet - look at and listen to the commentary. This is supposed to be about acting, and even when taking into account that Hollywood is for beautiful people, the difference in the variety of men in terms in age and attractiveness, or different types of attractiveness, compared to the women, and the fairly obvious difference in levels of ornamentation required and critiqued upon.....

I can never understand when people say that women are judged no more on their looks than men are. It's just not true.

Lass - if women don't feel pressure to look good, why do they spend billions on cosmetics and plastic surgery?

I don't agree with the statement that woman are judged first and foremost on their looks. If a man or a woman for that matter is out on the town looking for a sexual encounter,then yes. If it's a job interview then no. That is not true.

So far as Caitlyn Jenner personally I find that cover obviously fake whoever the subject was.

"Passing" gets mentioned a lot in relation to transwomen. If it weren't for the fact she is famous and would be recognised Kelly Maloney in photographs seems to wear clothes and level of make up which wouldn't cause anyone to give a second look to any 60 year old woman out walking her dogs or shopping. Dressed up she seems to go for the flattering but safe Hobbs style of evening wear which again will not make anyone bat an eyelid.

This excellent article points up the contradictions-
www.dallasnews.com/opinion/latest-columns/20150605-robert-jensen-a-transgender-problem-for-diversity-politics.ece

and this-
"In their eagerness to ally with the trans movement, third-wave feminists have fundamentally altered their definition of womanhood to accommodate men"
thefederalist.com/2015/06/03/how-the-hypersexual-trans-movement-hurts-feminism/

Caitlyn Jenner does not look good

cantbelieve - I think if you look at the numerous trans threads on here at the moment, I think you'll find very little overlap between the group of people saying "being a woman is about how you feel" and the group of people who say "gender is a social construction whereby society imposes 'sex roles' on people according to their genital makeup at birth". That's why people are arguing for thousands of posts (I agree that the two positions are at best in tension with one another and at eorst irreconcilable - but I don't see many people out there trying to espouse both at oncw).

Agree with VixxFace PHOTOSHOP people!!! Find it interesting though that so many accept Bruce/Caitlyn's reports that I "feel" like a woman etc when for years many have accepted feminism's battlecry that there is no difference between male and female, we're all the same etc

Yy Fejoia.

But Bruce had surgery, make up and photo shop . Anyone can look good with that.

In your opinion why do women spend billions of dollars worldwide on cosmetics and plastic surgery Lass?

You know apart from on here I've never met any woman who has so little self worth that she considers she is judged solely or mainly by her physical appearance. Or who thought Vogue or VF shoots were achievable.
It's not saying much about the intelligence of women really.
Transwomen who don't like the way Jenner has been styled simply will have to do what we do- think yeah looks great, it's not real and then get on with their lives being themselves and looking like themselves.

I was going to say that that isn't actually how he looks in real life is it? We have seen an elderly man with fine, sparce hair and some interesting facial surgery now looking very womanly and attractive as a result of a photo shoot. I suspect an army of hairdressers and make up artists could make me look pretty good too, see me in the morning thought an OMG it's not pretty at all.

i think it's all a bit silly

I suspect that most people would look stunning when photographed by Annie Leibovitz for the cover of Vanity Fair, including Kris Jenner.