Motherhood, footbinding, and privilege

By either of us, I meant either me or you.

Pax, I don't think either of us quite answered your question.

" do women who consider themselves feminists have plastic surgery"

It's oddly phrased. Do you mean "is it inconsistent to self define as feminist and have cosmetic surgery?"

I would say no. As scallops and Lotus say, most feminists take some actions in the direction of meeting social standards of attractiveness, whether via make up, hair dye, depilation, Botox etc. I don't see any of those actions rules out feminist beliefs as well. I wouldn't be convinced by a claim that using Botox was in itself feminist action because choice, of course.

Not all plastic surgery is to make you look younger. Some plastic surgery can be for things like breast replacement after a mastectomy or helping burns heal. Are feminists allowed those options paxtecum? Also why do you think we speak for all feminists? Women are judged far more for their looks and in fact are told constantly, every day, what they should look like. It is far easier to get by in a patriarchal world if you pass the patriarchal fuckability test. Personally, I can't blame women wanting to do that.

Excellent blog post AbortionFairyGodmother. You've articulated what I was thinking when I was reading the posts on FB (again I think we are in the same FB group). I'd also say that it isn't uncommon for women to find feminism after motherhood as it makes sense of what is happening to them. Especially if they were middle class, educated women but not exclusively I just think the shift is a bit more apparent in that group. So there is plenty of evidence that the patriarchal force is strong on mothers

I think having plastic surgery and botox just to look younger is madness.
Every operation and procedure carries a risk, as Lesley Ash found out.
She destroyed her health in attempt to defy the ageing process.

We don't have to turn into old frumpy women, but we should be able to embrace getting older.

I speak as a 63 year old who doesn't like looking in the mirror.

You can report your post and ask for deletion.

I don't think women should be paid by the state for making babies, if that's what you mean.

Pax, my personal opinion is that cosmetic surgery is not worth the risk. Some people have cosmetic surgery to alter perfectly fine bodies or faces to appeal more to social standards of attractiveness. I can understand the pressure that might lead some there.

But what do you think, pax?

omg! can all but 1 of these be deleted please

What do you think about women being paid for making babies, doing housework etc?

LL's posts are nothing whatsoever to do with the thread, she's just banging her usual boring drum

Lotus, I don't understand what your posts have got to do with either a. the concept of privilege or b. the relative situation of mothers and non mothers - i.e. the topic of the thread.

Socialism is based on time and currency exchange so it is nonsensical to say that socialist feminists consider money to be a huge moral insult.

There has always been the debate about whether mothers shoudl stay as low or no earners at home as if they work other women (although sometimes men) then have to do their dirty work at home - the socialist feminist view - that money and earnings are a huge moral insult and we should all thrive on fresh air whilst some state provides. Or whether women gaining qualifications and sharing the load at home with men are selling out or doing good. I have always argued they are doing good and that it is an insult to women of poor backgrounds to assume they cannot earn more and beat the men at their own game!

One of the problems I have with the 'privilege' concept is that I do not understand what the thinking is as to how they decide who is privileged. It just seems to devolve into competing lists of things different people don't experience.

So as I never have to worry about being held responsible if there is a freak earthquake in Paris and a building collapses, I have non French-architect privilege, and there should probably be a special name for non French-architects or I am denying my privilege.

I understand the thinking behind traditional liberal feminism (internationally agreed rights through law) and radical feminism (materialist base) as to explaining who is and is not disadvantaged, but I don't understand how the group who talk about privilege (social justice types) are making that decision.

Black rider, you don't need to apologise. I over reacted.

Yes, I've read it and I agree that any group does much better by fighting simple basic issues rather than in-fighting.
Force men to hold the baby and clean the loo in your own marriage and you've won half the battle. Laugh if a man says of his wife at home - she's a better person than I am. I don't know how she does it. She has the hardest job. That is the language of oppression. The deification of dull domestic toil is one of the most damaging things done to women.

Do women have plastic surgery consider themselves feminists? I define feminism very simply wanting equality for men and women under the law and fairness at home - on that definition most of us including most British men are feminists. I don't think it is for us to question most women's use of the term. I wear the same clothes every day like a man and on the whole tend to spend the time men might spend on clothes, their looks etc. I find that very freeing and I set those principles down for myself in the 1970s and they have stood me in very good stead and presumably partly the reason I am happy and earn a lot. However for many women their best way to an easy life is marrying a richer man so I don't begrudge women who think spending time on fake breasts is going to pay off better than the years I spent in the law library. All we can do is work with what we have and yes I do dye my hair at home (£7 a time) and I do occasionally wear high heels which in a sense are not too different from foot binding and similarly not too different from a burka which also curbs your ability to cycle, run and jump.

This is the problem I have with the whole "privileged class" rhetoric - it often turns into "who has the least" wars :(
I understand the benefits of thinking about classes with privilege vs other classes of people but I honestly have never really seen it not turn into "X group has even less privilege than y" arguments :(

Will read your blog now.

Yonic, yes I have.
Third paragraph from the end cites women having plastic surgery at the risk of lethality.

I have asked do women who consider themselves feminists have plastic surgery.