Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tell me what you think of this article about men and boys (Philip Zimbardo interview in the Guardian)

40 replies

rootypig · 09/05/2015 20:46

I'm interested to know what people think of this article. www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/may/09/philip-zimbardo-boys-are-a-mess

I don't disagree that men and boys are in trouble, though I would situate it in more of a political analysis - I think people are in trouble, largely because of the lack of meaningful, properly paid work. And I agree that porn must be hugely damaging to men (as well as to women). But I was shocked and appalled by many of the assertions made, which seem to be nothing more than lazy gender stereotyping (fathers do not love unconditionally and mothers do, women are interested in sex only when linked with romance, men do and act while women think and feel - I mean, bollocks to that, women are bloody doing things constantly, but it's often things that noone notices or attaches importance to). The article also notes that Zimbardo has no interest in gay men and boys - so he's certainly subscribing to a narrow view of gender in one key regard.

But the man is emeritus professor at Stanford and surely his views are based on experience and research. Am I wrong, do these stereotypes hold more than I would like to admit? Perhaps as a psychologist, he is reflecting the world as he finds it - and I do believe that children are raised in a heavily gendered way, which might produce these differences. Or am I right to think that it's offensive, and naive to think that elite universities are somehow free of the gendered ideas that the rest of the world holds?

His suggestions for change, incidentally, are things that I would support.

OP posts:
TheLily1957 · 10/05/2015 13:56

Rooty the thought had crossed my mind! But yes it is disappointing especially as he is a social psychologist and one of his main arguments as far as I can recall is that people are made in to who they are, not born ..

TheLily1957 · 10/05/2015 13:51

Yeah Rooty the thought had crossed my mind! But yeah its very disappointing especially given he is a social psychologist and as far as I can remember one of his main arguments is that people are made in to who they are not born.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 10/05/2015 13:10

NOT always and unfailingly eye-wateringly huge - that should say obviously!

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 10/05/2015 13:09

Actually while I'm here I can ask something that has always confused me.

He talks about how porn is bad for boys for lots of reasons (I agree that porn is a huge problem) and one of the reasons is that the men in porn are extraordinarily well endowed and young men think they don't measure up.

I've read this before as well.

But the porn I've seen mostly has men who are quite normal in the cock department, reasonably sized sure but always and unfailingly eye-wateringly huge. So why do so many people say this is the case? I don't understand. Is it that most heterosexual men haven't seen many erect penises in real life, and so ones who actually aren't very well endowed assume they are average and the men in porn are unusual? This has always baffled me (not a very intellectual question i know but there you go!).

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 10/05/2015 13:03

i got about 1/3 of the way through before I WTF-ed out with this gem:

“Men are opting out and women are opting in. Women are working harder at jobs, they’re working harder in school, and they are achieving – last year women had more of every single category of degree, even engineering. This is data from around the world. Now in many colleges there’s a big gap as boys are dropping out of school and college.”

Zimbardo estimates that there are, in Britain and the US, 5-10% more women than men at many colleges and universities. “So they’re going to have to have affirmative action for guys because obviously one reason you go to college is to find a guy.”

rootypig · 10/05/2015 00:03

Sure Lily, I'm not looking for free from bias, just found what was said really outrageous. Especially for someone with a lifetime of work in psychology behind him.

D'you reckon he's gone a bit mad in his advancing years?

OP posts:
SarkyWench · 09/05/2015 23:45

BBC not BBQ :)

SarkyWench · 09/05/2015 23:44

Watching this YouTube clip of his BBQ interview (especially the middle/latter parts) should give you some clue as to whether you should take his views seriously.

www.youtube.com/watch?t=24&v=8voQHnfOq7w

TheLily1957 · 09/05/2015 23:41

BTW I do agree his assertions are horriblely sexist. I used to be a fan of Zimbardo - at a lecture of his once and he was mesmerising.Gone off him now though.

TheLily1957 · 09/05/2015 23:36

rooty I think that the kind of research question asked will impact on what is found to be 'true,' Just because its Stanford Psychology doesn't mean its findings are necessarily free from bias.

rootypig · 09/05/2015 23:25

By which I mean - rather more shocking and discombobulating.

OP posts:
rootypig · 09/05/2015 23:24

Of course, in their personal opinions. I wouldn't be remotely surprised about that, frankly I'd expect it. But when it's central to their research, and their research is psychology, isn't it a different beast?

OP posts:
YonicScrewdriver · 09/05/2015 23:04

Remember the senior guy at Harvard sacked for saying women were just not quite as smart at men?

Senior folks at good Unis can be sexists...

rootypig · 09/05/2015 23:00

It does improve slightly Grin

OP posts:
AutumnMadness · 09/05/2015 20:55

I just started reading this article but, honestly, could not find the strength to get to the end. All I can say is that I expected better from Stanford. Fathers do not love unconditionally . . . ugh.

Swipe left for the next trending thread