Bystanders to assaults

I see what you're saying, Yops, and I realise it can help some people, but it's dangerous advice. I can assure you (used to do a lot of weight training and climbing as a younger woman) that even being unusually strong for a woman, you're still at a disadvantage relative to most men. Furthermore there's the question of psychological reaction - a lot of normal people freeze in response to danger. All that training isn't going to help you if you can't move. And there's the possibility that your attacker is carrying a weapon.

I always remember the question posed by the Tae Kwondo coach where I used to train (he was trying to get across the limitations of marial arts for self defence). He asked "Suppose I'm walking along the road with my wife, and some bloke comes up and completely out of the blue swings a punch at me. What do you think would happen?" Lots of the men in the audience (yes, it was the men who tried to answer, not the women - draw from this what you will) pitched in with "such and such a block", "so and so counterpunch", etc. The coach just looked at us and said, "No, I'd end up with my nose broken, same as you. Because I wouldn't be expecting it." That's the limitation with self-defence training - unless you live your life at defcon 5, someone's always going to be able to swing a random punch.

I am an intervener. Although last time I intervened in a 'domestic' in public it resulted in my (male) friend being walloped/getting his shirt ripped, and both the victim and the perpetrator of the assault I witnessed being arrested for assaulting police officers. I only hope that the victim saw by my reaction to how her boyfriend was treating her how unacceptable it was and maybe one day stops defending him to the point of getting arrested herself.

I was also once the victim of a common assault, in a petrol station. 11 members of the public & staff stood and watched- they even stood back and let him bloody pay so he could leave - and I had to call the police myself. He was arrested charged and convicted.

I'd back up what Goats said. I go to a boxing gym where plenty of women train with the men. These are not big, hulking 'roided specimens - they are normal height and weight. But I can tell you they hit hard! They'd put most blokes on their arse with a punch. Women are physically capable of standing their ground. Like men, they shouldn't have to resort to violence, but sometimes there is little option.

OP and swan: another thing your experiences show is that women are not powerless in the face of male violence, as society likes to paint us. You both fought back, and luckily in your cases that was enough to get you out of those situations.

I'd like every woman to walk around knowing that she can, in fact, hold her own. Instead I think most of us walk around feeling like helpless victims-in-waiting, because we've been told that that's what we are (through the damsel in distress trope, and lifelong socialisation to be agreeable and amenable...).

" if someone's willing to sexually assault a woman, they are willing to physically assault a man"

Wouldn't count on it. Lots of men are only ever violent towards women, they're nice as pie to other men. And when women tell men that these men are violent, lots of men don't believe them, because they've always been nice to them.

To be fair to people who film assaults, maybe it's their way of trying to provide evidence to the police?

I don't remember anyone else around. I lurked for a bit then the man started gesturing at me so I scuttled off. Wish I'd thought if ringing 999 but didn't stupidly ( had huge post natal anxiety and sleep deprivation - dd only slept in 45 minute chunks at that stage due to un diagnosed CMPI)

You're right, Goats, but I was angry and confused and panicking slightly and it's hard to get a task force going when you're trying to pry some fucker's hand off your thigh. So when my cry for help didn't work - and I was really counting on it to work, that's why I was so shocked when absolutely nothing happened - I just went into fight mode and was sorry immediately after (not sorry now, don't you worry ). So your advice is good, but I don't know how practicable it is under stress. I'm with Whirlpool here, the safest strategy is to take preventative measures, team up with others before anything happens.
BringBack - oh man, I really wouldn't want a mother putting herself and her baby at risk. Not for anything. Was there no one else around?
The Girl - someone actually took the time and energy to try and stop you from intervening? I'm actually lost for words and that's a new and deeply unpleasant experience for me. I'm really glad you didn't listen, though!

I intervened in an (non sexual) assault in broad daylight once and received (verbal) abuse for my troubles from other 'bystanders'.

Truly awful. I was trapped in a scary situation and until the police came I felt as under attack as the victim Someone did call the police but I think only after I was screaming at the top of my lungs for someone to do something. One bloke told me to get away as it was none of my business. He actually walked over the road to say that!

I did get a nice certificate from the police and flowers (via the police) from the victims mum.

I wouldn't hesitate to do it again. It shocks me to my very core at how few people do help.

I'm afraid I've been a bystander to a physical assault. Not sexual though as far as ikniw.

My excuse was I had 6 week dd1 strapped to my front in a sling, and I didn't see any other way to keep her safe than ignore and scuttle past.

I am still deeply ashamed though

Good for you for punching that man, uglyswan. You should totally feel entitled to defend yourself with all you've got when you feel in danger like that. It sounds terrifying, and you held your own, and got out of a tricky situation on your own wits and strength.

The point I was making upthread is that people really need to be individually singled out in order to snap out of bystander apathy. If you don't know their name, they can be singled out by the colour of their top, or an object they are holding. And then they need to be given a specific task, so that they can't use their cluelessness, too, as a justification for not doing anything: call 999, walk me to the next exit, hold this person's arms,...

This puts the onus on the victim, or on a more clued up bystander, to single people out and issue instructions. It's not fair, but human psychology being what it is, it's still a good tip to know.

In your case, although you called out for help, sadly, the people in the carriage probably were still able to feel unconcerned when you called out for "somebody", because everybody in the carriage is a somebody, and so nobody is personally responsible, and "help" was something they could still kid themselves was not within their ability. You were right to ask the people in the carriage, collectively, for help. They were totally wrong, each of them, not to intervene. This is on them, not on you.

YY the eye contact with other women thing. When a man/men gets on who seems a bit "off" for whatever reason.

This is all stuff we take for granted isn't it that actually I didn't realise until recently. That there is all this stuff shared between females that I took for granted so much I didn't even notice it.

Aw thanks, Whirlpool. It could have been a lot worse. I got away after all.

But yes, it was more of a collective "not my problem" rather than actual approval. And there were three of them and they were quite big and noisy, so I didn't really expect anyone to leap to my rescue. But a brief acknowledgement of the situation would have been nice. I'd have given a lot for a shared look of shock and horror at that moment.

The good thing is, you become very sensitized to situations that might go wrong. As you said, sharing a carriage with a woman at night. Catching someone's eye, even a quick nod or smile that means "We've got each other's backs, right? In case this lot turn on us." - It all makes you a lot less nervous. Hopefully other people too.

Well obviously that isn't the case, that anyone thought you deserved it or anything.

Sounds like a massive case of bystander effect. Were the men really big and scary, there were a few of them, I guess people just didn't want to put themselves in the "firing line" and were hoping that it would all just go away / someone else would deal with it.

Bloody hell. I'm so sorry. Stuff like that makes you lose your faith in humanity totally doesn't it.

I don't know. I suppose the women might have been thinking "If they've got her, perhaps they'll leave me alone?" Which is understandable, but probably the most depressing thing I've typed all day. The men? Didn't want to get into a fight, I suppose. Or thought I was overreacting? "Just a bit of fun."

But the part that gets me is that nobody would even look me in the eye. I assume that would have made them feel obliged to acknowledge I was in trouble and that they were âlready^ involved, whether they wanted to or not. But it just felt like they were condoning it in some way. That I was getting what was coming to me and should be ashamed of myself for causing a scene.

Yes I used to sit in a carriage with a female in it when I used to travel around at night. They used to have a guard on our tube which was good but they did away with them years ago.

When people say it's unfair or sexist of women to do stuff like this (choose a carriage with another woman) and I know they haven't on this thread but it does come up, they are entirely overlooking the fact that women who do this, do so because of experiences they have had, often on more than one occasion.

I'm so sorry that happened to you it's awful, I don't know what to say. thing is the people on the train clearly can't all have been total bastards, so WTF was going through their heads???

It was utterly surreal! I felt like it was all happening inside a glass tank or something, where I could see everyone but no one could see or hear me. Like an especially horrible dream. Nowadays I always look around for the nearest woman or girl travelling on her own and sit down next to her if possible. That way I know: if they turn nasty, at least there's two of us!

Bloody hell that's utterly horrifying uglyswan.

Goats - even that's hard though. Several years ago, I was travelling on on a packed train on a Sunday afternoon. I'd just recovered from a nasty bout of flu and wasn't feeling quite right, so I sat down in a window seat and a four seater, leaned my head against the window and dozed off. Next thing I knew, there were three men sitting round me, groping me. They grabbed at me and blocked me in with their legs when I tried to get away. I'd heard of the bystander effect, so I piped up, "Could someone pleasehelp me." But nobody moved, no one would even catch my eye. They laughed at me and as the train pulled into the station, one of them stood up to stop me from leaving. So I punched him in the face (I know. First time I ever straight out punched a guy. Didn't feel good), pushed my way out and ran.
So perhaps they were really scary men and no one felt they could stand up to them. But it obviously wasn't a domestic and I'd made it clear that I needed help and no one intervened, no one said "C'mon, let her go", no one called the police, and nobody would even catch my eye. The only help I got was a couple of people who made way for me so that I could escape.
You get used to being harassed and groped and catcalled. But that part was the hardest to get over. It felt like everyone thought it served me right, that I'd deserved it for some reason.

I am also sorry that you were assaulted, OP, and that no-one intervened.

The "bystander effect" is amply studied: broadly, the more people witness an incident, the less likely it is that anyone will intervene. Probably because responsibility is diluted between so many people, that none feel individually responsible anymore.

In assertiveness and self-defense courses, they often teach you how to snap bystanders back to a sense of personal responsibility, by singling them out and issuing a specific task: "You there with the red jumper, dial 999. And you, tall man with the sports bag, come help me calm this gentleman down."

Useful to remember, next time any of us find ourselves as bystanders, among an apathetic crowd that's at a loss how to respond to something and looking the other way.

When was that?

I have never understood how a girl was raped on a packed train in the daytime. Parents were telling their DCs not to look.
I don't understand how the collective power of the bystanders couldn't have overcome the rapist.

I hope that I would never be the bystander who chooses to ignore and not intervene.

My brother intervened when a man was being violent towards his girlfriend and the man knocked his front teeth out. he said he would do the same thing again, though I have said calling the police and encouraging others nearby to help him if possible might make him less likely to be on the receiving end of violence too

I'm so sorry that happened to you TBW, and I agree the inertia is appalling - it supports abusers in their abuse

TBH and I am v feministy person, I think that intervention across the board is low for all sorts of crimes.

I think people don't intervene in all sorts of stuff not just sex crimes, sadly.

Like I say I didn't hear the piece though.