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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If you could build the perfect feminist bloke from existing fictional characters ...

83 replies

JeanneDeMontbaston · 19/04/2015 11:31

Indulge me here. Where would you start with the perfect feminist (fictional) bloke?

I quite like Joss Whedon's men, but they all tend to have a worrying streak of misogyny/evil in them.

And if someone suggests Gilbert Blythe, I may have to become aggressive and silencing. Wink

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Takver · 19/04/2015 20:36

Mal is just awful, sorry. He doesn't even manage bad-boy-sexy, he's just annoying.

Giles is a pretty good guy, I'd say.

Personally, I'll put in a bid for Cassandra Clare's Jem. Clever, charming, simultaneously 140 years old whilst looking 19, and I can't think of any dodgy anti-feminist habits.

ZeroFunDame · 19/04/2015 19:46

Eleven? (Matt Smith)

It seems wrong to pick out just one iteration of the Doctor but he had a visibly equal relationship with River Song - she was in no way subsidiary. And there was no damsel in distress gallantry in "The Girl Who Waited."

LurcioAgain · 19/04/2015 19:21

NotCitrus - yes, you're right about Reacher, I think (not that he's ever done it for me romantically). And strangely, I think the same can be said for (book) Richard Sharpe - he always falls in love (even if transiently) with his love interest in each book, usually when they've shown some sort of independence or bravery (even unexpectedly so - like the shy governess who somehow manages to escape from the French). Of course he's totally unbelievable in that respect. He's clearly meant to be (on some level) a psychopath (he even says of himself in one of the books "Men like me are useful during war, but a country doesn't know what to do with us during peacetime", or something to that effect), and psychopaths just aren't selective psychopaths in real life - nice and decent to the good guys, merciless to the bad guys. So to that extent I never quite bought the "gut the Frenchie one moment, unerringly chivalrous to the woman the next" bit - but when I suspend disbelief, I rather enjoy them.

Trills · 19/04/2015 19:07

Love Parlabane. Good choice. He has female friends too, which is generally a good sign.

Neville Longbottom. Loyal, a good friend, fancies Ginny (who is obviously cleverer than him), takes a level in badass in a supportive group way not an I-am-hero-man-please-worship-me way.

YonicScrewdriver · 19/04/2015 19:02

Hmm, parlabane. Good self awareness around the surgeon, I'll grant.

LurcioAgain · 19/04/2015 18:59

I see Peter Whimsey's been grabbed already! It's that letter in Gaudy Night that I love - something along the lines of "You will not shy away from danger and unpleasantness, and god forbid that you should..."

Re. Mal in Firefly - yes, arsehole (albeit that most seductive kind, the troubled, possibly redeemable arsehole). And it's that bad boy=sexy, nice-guy = dull trope that dominates so much of romantic fiction. As someone who writes a bit in a very amateur sort of way, it's very challenging (given the cultural baggage we all come pre-loaded with) to write a sexy, but feminist compliant man. However much we engage in consciousness-raising, we do so against a background of a culture which tells us that dominance is sexy. I have to admit (I write in a medieval fantasy world, mostly) I do it by having the blokes kick ass when it comes to dealing with the bad guys, but reasonable and decent in their interactions with the female characters.

That's a brilliant insight Tribpot, that Angel isn't redeemed by love but in fact turns on full on evil. Though I'm never quite sure whether I see that plot move as feminist compliant ("see, the idea that love redeems is a pile of shite") or simply another version of the tired old "sex is dangerous for a virgin" trope - as in, he and Buffy are allowed to be completely in love so long as they do a variant on the "silver ring thing" and don't actually shag.

NotCitrus · 19/04/2015 18:58

How about Jack Parlabane (happy to be out-earned by Sarah who is a great character, but prone to ending up on the wrong end of bad guys), or even Reacher - only ever gets together with strong talented women and is honest before shagging them that he won't stick around. Capable of ironing and cleaning. Drawbacks - won't stick around.

What about West Wing characters - Bartlet, Sam, Josh?

I don't think Firefly characters can really be mapped onto Buffy ones, but there's certainly feminist ingredients in both sets of characters. The men don't have to always be comfortable with female power, just trying not to be dicks about it.

Grantaire · 19/04/2015 18:40

Oh yes Jamie in Outlander but later Jamie obviously. Compared to Frank who was never going to see Claire as an equal, Jamie has massive character growth. Claire becomes more than his equal actually and Jamie is painted as progressive.

Trills · 19/04/2015 18:03

Vaguely related to Wash being happy to have a wife who was more awesome than him, I read this blog post about men being intimidated by smart women.

My favourite bit:
If you are intimidated by intelligent women, I am unlikely to have anything in common with you. Frankly, it’s probably better if you sneer at me and turn away early because I’ll just get bored of you.

tribpot · 19/04/2015 17:43

I'm assuming that the Seth Green in Entourage is fictionalised, like Matt LeBlanc in Episodes. That guy is also a prick!

Kennedy is indeed an insult to the memory of Tara.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 19/04/2015 17:39

Oh, dear. Sad I wanted to like Seth Green.

I think Wash is Willow - sort of geeky, tech-support-y.

I suppose that makes Zoe Kennedy, and Kennedy is a shit character if I ever saw one.

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tribpot · 19/04/2015 17:31

Isn't Zoe Willow? Which would make Wash Tara, except I hated Tara.

I like Oz but can't get over the character Seth Green plays in Entourage, what a prick. (Meant to be himself as well).

JeanneDeMontbaston · 19/04/2015 17:13

Grin You're in the spirit of this, Lager. And yes, I do agree, accepting women who don't conform is a nice characteristic.

trib - is Wash Xander? I think he's more like Willow - he and Zoe have a solid relationship that genuinely works, a bit like Willow and Tara. Or I suppose like Willow and Oz, briefly.

Oz is great. I'll have his sarcasm in there. But not the wanky 'it's a man's chord' comments.

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tribpot · 19/04/2015 17:09

Mal was the troubled hero that (ironically) Anne thought she wanted to meet. Not that she pictures a guy on a space ship, that would have been somewhat genre-busting. It was that whole 'could be redeemed through love' thing that Whedon had already subverted with Angel, who actually couldn't be redeemed through love but went Full Evil when it happened.

Mal was awful to Inara, surely in real life (so to speak) she would have found herself another ship to fly with - I can't remember if there was some reason why she needed to be off the beaten track, I don't think so.

I suppose Wash is a less irritating version of Xander, though - somewhat comedy sidekick more than protagonist.

LagerthaEarlIngstad · 19/04/2015 17:07

Ok, can I have Jon Snow's admiration for Ygritte combined with Jamie from Outlander's acceptance of Claire's being unconventional. There's a bit of a theme forming already - I seem to like male characters that accept the women they are involved with not conforming? Both those characters have a sort of tenderness as well which is attractive and nice bums-

ZeroFunDame · 19/04/2015 17:05

It's not looking good I must say. I am half a century old and have read many gazillions of books and, apart from the two above I honestly cannot think of anyone who would go into the mix for my perfect robohusband. Clever, charming, time travelling, yes, demonstrably feminist, not yet.

Interesting question. Will think harder.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 19/04/2015 17:03

Oh, Wash is lovely. I forgot about him. Yes, great bloke.

Not remotely sexy, though, is he? Which is tricky.

Mal is a wassock, TBH. I don't really get the appeal. He's not even very nice to Inara.

Giles has his good points.

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tribpot · 19/04/2015 17:00

I think it's true, Joss Whedon does struggle to write feminist men. Maybe Wash in Firefly is a better example? Certainly Mal Reynolds (whilst marvellously brooding and 'ruggedly handsome' to quote one of Nathan Fillion's other characters!) seems to have a right old stick up his arse about Inara's choice of profession. In Buffy the guys seem to struggle with the fact Buffy is a superhero - except perhaps Angel (although he also has to be evil on a regular basis of course).

JeanneDeMontbaston · 19/04/2015 16:59

YY, but this is why we can take traits and put them together to form the beautiful whole.

So I can have the fact Wesley in Angel is genuinely turned on by a woman who's cleverer than him, and lose the fact he spends most of his time being fuelled by internalised misogyny and keeping women locked up in his closet.

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LagerthaEarlIngstad · 19/04/2015 16:57

It's depressingly impossible to think of any...

JeanneDeMontbaston · 19/04/2015 16:56

Oh, yes, it's absolutely forgiveable.

But this is our perfect feminist man, you see ...

I do like Falco. I haven't read much but my teacher used to read bits aloud to us. It's interesting - that reversed power dynamic makes an easier relationship, but it's kind of uncomfortable that it's necessary, too.

OK, I think I will Frankestein bits of Gilbert competing with Anne at university together with bits of Falco.

trills - yes. And so often, writers have a funny idea of what comes across as sexy and chivalrous, and what comes across as controlling and patronizing.

Like Riley in Buffy. Doesn't habitually murder women, turn them mad, or torture them, so streets ahead of most of the men. But, he does come out with absolute garbage about how he still finds Buffy attractive but 'won't advertise this to the Mrs' and about how women need 'protecting'. And he punches someone because they're rude about her.

Therefore, he is a complete lack of appeal.

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tribpot · 19/04/2015 16:52

Gilbert pulls Anne's pigtails when he's about 10 and calls her carrots, and she refuses to speak to him for the rest of elementary school, despite the fact he tries to make amends. I think he can be forgiven for one remark as a child, surely!

Does he turn Anne into a Stepford wife? He's supportive of her writing. And he competes with her on equal terms whilst they're at university.

I've read Anne of Ingleside but not some of the other later books, can't remember Gilbert being anti the women's vote. Will have to re-read.

Back in Ancient Rome, there is also Falco. He didn't own his wife, in fact she outranks him.

Trills · 19/04/2015 16:50

The trouble is that so many "goodies" in fantasy see women as weak and needing protecting. Or they think that women are beautiful delicate pure beings of goodness, which tends to amount to the same thing.

JeanneDeMontbaston · 19/04/2015 16:45

Hmmm, interesting one grant. Though, if Valjean can be Hugh Jackman, I'd go there too, I think. He's more feministy/sympathetic than some versions.

trills - er, no! Grin But nice try.

I do like a good baddie, though. They could always be reformed. But not, I think, Littlefinger.

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Trills · 19/04/2015 16:29

Technically Littlefinger from A Song of Ice and Fire is very equal-opportunities in how he manipulates and exploits people -- but I guess that's not really what you are after! :o

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