I thought I was a feminist until someone showed me this forum.

I wouldn't normally expect to support Still over Cailin, but why shouldn't Still post here? She finds it interesting and stimulating, as do I. OK so she doesn't agree with everything and yes can occasionally get a bit narky as can we all

I think that kind of links to the point in the op. Not agreeing with feminism doesn't mean she can't engage with discussion on it.

True, magenta.

Yes of course that's true, but as the society we come from is massively skewed in favour of men, that's an issue for feminism to address and for feminists to be aware of.

The same goes for many other things of course - racism, homophobia and so on. What's important is to understand the inequality and see it for what it is, where it is. And challenge it when someone promulgates it.

Not spotted any other "argumentative" posts on that BA thread, still.

All choices are influenced by the society they are made in, whether made by young, old, man or woman. To some this seems like a statement of weakness; I'm never quite clear why.

MN is a great place to discuss feminism in detail and exchange views and I have learned a lot, not just from other people's views but because it's helped me to clarify my own. There are bunfights and disagreements but sometimes that's useful. It's helped me to see that things aren't always as clear-cut as I would like.

I would say that feminism is not "about choice", in as much as anyone can make a choice, and it could be a choice that is very bad for themselves as a woman, and for other women. For example, choosing to subject their daughter to FGM is a choice that many women make. The question is why do they. I think they do because of a background context that does not afford women freedom and equality - so for example cultural tradition dictates that a woman won't be acceptable/marriageable without FGM – so that "choice" is distorted.

That's an extreme example but I think it also applies in western/supposedly emancipated society. We may think we are making free choices but when over 80% of women choose to change their name on marriage for example, when almost all men wouldn't, it illustrates the inequality that still underlies the way we (both men and women) think. I think that inequality has a hell of a lot to answer for – it lies behind women not putting themselves forward for jobs when men will, not demanding more pay, the high incidence of male-on-female DV, and so on.

For me, the baseline of feminism is equality and only when we have real equality are choices free. Therefore when I try to "be feminist" I don't say "well I choose X and I'm a woman therefore it's fine" - that makes no sense. What I say is "is this far, is this equal, am I regarding men and women as equals with the choice I'm about to make or the thing I'm about to say/do/demand".

So, I wouldn't change my name on marriage for example, unless it's done 50% by each gender. And when other women do, I don't think they're doing a very feminist thing because they are reinforcing that particular message of gender inequality to their friends, family, DC and so on. So I can see how people can complain about feminist "rules" – but I reserve the right to say "doing XYZ is reinforcing gender inequality, therefore I don't see it as feminist." They can feel free to disagree with me and explain their reasoning.

Mumsnet is one if the very places where I don't feel I have a set of rules to apply to, I often see negative comments about the regulars on FWR, I've only recently started posting but have lurked a very long time and I don't see the patronising thing.

Buffy's posts in particular, really changed my view on life, I read everyone's, but when I first started reading FWR it was Buffy's posts that challenged me, without her even knowing, and this is the first I've mentioned it, she's kind of changed my life, or at least my view on it, I've often typed a long message out saying thank you, and then deleted it because it never sounds right, and from reading the FWR section I've gotten confidence to use my voice, both online and in rl and I really can't thank everyone enough for that.

I've learned not to judge, and to actually listen to other angles, instead of dismissing them as "wrong" I would listen to things being discussed and make my assumptions, based on my life and my upbringing, which is wrong, I've come at things from my upbringing, from my experiences, and now I've learnt to actually think beyond the words someone is saying to me, and think about how they have reached the conclusion they have done, and while it might be different to mine, I have a new respect. Like others have mentioned, I also don't feel articulate enough to express what I'm trying to say, but I've never felt judged. Ever.

I think people, when reading the dissecting of issues, such as wearing make up or sah/woh read the posts tand then take it personally, as a critisicm, but I read it as looking at society and how/why we are where we are, type of thing.

I'm waffling now, but just wanted to say what the OP describes hasn't been my experience and I'm sorry that others have had negative experiences here.

callandaia what I said and have said before is I disagree with some, perhaps a lot of the views expressed on here. I'm still puzzled why that should preclude me expressing an opinion on issues which affect women. Particularly those issues I referred to.. The Green thread was fascinating and informative.

Why do I have to agree with feminism to have an opinion ? And whose definition of feminism?

OP - you've done it now. You've split the feminist movement right down the middle. Things fall apart, the centre cannot hold, and mankind can breath again, safe in the knowledge that the matriarchy, the evil tyranny of shouty women, has been averted at the last moment. Are you happy now, OP? ARE YOU HAPPY?

Have you seen the research (I'll look it out in a bit) which says that if any group has a third or more women, people think that women are in a majority? I wonder whether something like that is going on? Women are so used to being compliant and agreeing that if a woman disagrees they are perceived as aggressive and bullying?

I am split here, part of me is very liberal feminism pro choice (and before people start going on about choice being limited that applies to 98% of the population both men and women) but I do have some issues that get up my nose. I certainly know I am not the best liked person on the board but I will throw in my opinion asked for or not. If I feel it is pointless answering things I won't waste my time but on some subjects I will weigh in continually, some people don't like my opinions well I will go to bed crying my eyes out (not). The problem is that there is more than one opinion on what feminism should be and this board is more towards the radical than the liberal. Sometimes I think it would be nice if there were more liberal posters. I will say that whole issue here is reflected in the real world where many of us find the Bindels' and Burchils' laughable rather than some sort of goddess. I have reached an age where I am quite amused when people get upset at my opinion.

OP are you going to engage with the posters on the thread at all? If not, why did you start it?

Lousie Mensch - ha!

I think it boils down to training girls to be meek and sweet, not vociferous (opinionated!) or loud (shrill! disagreeable!). Many grown up women are uncomfortable arguing at all. Of course many feminists have successfully overcome this terrible conditioning so look a bit confrontational. Not the worst thing to be.

You've said you don't agree with feminism. So obviously people on a feminist board are going to have different views to you. Which is something you seem to object to. That's what I don't understand.

Yes, so you post on mumsnet as the whole of mumsnet discusses issues that affect women. But why come on the feminist board if you don't agree with feminism?

What does that even mean? I'm not allowed to express an opinion on rape or prostitution or prnography unless I agree with "feminism"? This forum discussed those issues in far greater depth, including the idiocy of the Green party policies. I contributed to those threads.

Whose definition of "feminism" anyway? How often are there threads on here about how misguided so called liberal feminists are and they aren't really feminists either.

I can't remember who said it but apparently being a Tory means one isn't be a feminist. I'm pretty certain Lousie Mensch considers she is.

I've read that thread.

"Exploded in anger" ???

Mighty we be getting to the point here?

Because if somebody could read that thread and genuinely think that anyone was "exploding with anger", then FWR threads must look like a nuclear war to them.......

Yeah, the posters who didn't see it as a problem were very sarcastic while all the others were offering advice on how to deal with it. I didn't see anyone "exploding with anger."

For example the thread exploding with anger because a man in a shop called someone "love" or something similar.

I have read the thread. I don't think anyone was exploding with anger about being called "love"; the snarkier posts were actually people thinking it was ok.

This always happens on these threads. Somebody will start a thread saying they don't like the feminist section, someone will complain about the regulars, and then someone who posts on here all the time will agree about how awful and rude and abrasive the regulars are.

Stilllostatthestation, this time that poster is you. You are a regular. You are a prolific poster. You post on the feminist section all the time. People often find your posting style abrasive.

If people are complaining about rude regulars, that means you too!

Yes, so you post on mumsnet as the whole of mumsnet discusses issues that affect women. But why come on the feminist board if you don't agree with feminism?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2324812-When-men-call-you-darling-or-lov

Sorry Buffy no need to drop your hand. That is appreciated.

I'm not sure the religious analogy works. I am a woman. I have opinions on issues that affect women. One does not have to identity as a feminist for that.