I thought I was a feminist until someone showed me this forum.

"I came and had a look and have come back a few times since but I have found that this thread in particular appears to have a very "our way or No way" attitude to feminism it feels heavily dominated by a few radicals who bully and undermine those who do not share their opinions with seemingly the sole aim of winning the post"

Do you think that is happening on this particular thread? That people are being bullied? Could you say where?

Mine's a pun on a Doctor Who gadget. How did you come up with yours?

Delurking for a minute! Well it's certainly not just you who feels that way there are comments like this about FWR all the time. If you've only made a few visits and you're not familiar with radical feminist thinking, then your visits are going to be characterised by encounters with ideas that are hard to get your head round at first and may challenge your worldview in quite an uncomfortable way. I never contribute on these threads but I read them all and have been doing for years. My views have become very closely aligned now with the radical feminist views expressed on here and I come on very open to being challenged and having my consciousness raised further. I do see some snarky posting and intellectual posturing sometimes but far less I would say than in most forums. You should lurk here more often and your perception may shift. I'll second the pp who praised Buffy for her articulate and thoughtful posting style. Cailindana is another.

That's a surprising username, cd69.

That's a surprising conclusion, debucnik.

Wifework is a classic example of something that just falls to women as the norm. Obviously not in every single relationship but in the vast majority I know of including mine, men, even nice men, have very little awareness of how much admin and can-carrying and just being on top of things there is to be done, and that's a direct continuation of that situation in their parents' generation. Kids (both boys and girls) grow up seeing women just having to manage households while men swan off/laze about and they internalise that. It's also reflected everywhere, in ads, in the way people talk. "Oh men are no good at that stuff, chuckle!"

To change that, you have to stand up and push against the norm, you have to say "No I won't do all this, no, you can't help yourself to a lie-in or a weekend away whenever you fancy while I drudge, no, I won't sort out Xmas presents for your side of the family, and here is a big pile of school forms to fill in, bills to sort out, presents to obtain, kids parties to organise, holidays to book" etc etc etc etc etc. And doing that involves, in itself, stepping outside the role women are subtly pressured to occupy, of peacemaker, being nice, being amenable, being capable, being a "good mum".

When a woman does this it's quite likely that her DP/DH will be put out, think he's being put upon in relation to his peers, or it often happens that the MIL will not be happy with the wife shuffling some of that work onto him. Yes, you can split that fairly if you have a DP/DH who's ready and willing - they are not the norm.

And that's repeated a million times over in many other arenas of a woman's life - asking for fair pay, keeping her name, what have you. It's not just that the playing field isn't level to start with. It's that in pushing to make it level, you have to push, and be seen as pushy. That is so hard, many women won't even go there. It really is not as simple as "just make an agreement".

I still see lots of women doing way more housework and childcare than their male partners.

still I've no idea what Louise Mensch's position as a feminist is but if you're referring to my first post then I stand by it. If you maintain that gender equality has been achieved then you aren't a feminist.

I'm a fairly liberal choicy choice leaning in type of feminist myself btw but don't recognise any of the accusations (slurs) that are thrown (with tedious regularity) at the FWR forum. It's a good place for a meaty discussion where a level of knowledge is assumed and if you don't have yet that, you'll be advised and resourced.

You said that you'd never had your bottom pinched (fair enough) even though you wore tight jeans. As if tight jeans, showing off your bottom, would be an invite to sexual harassment. men don't sexually harass women because they find them sexy. They sexually harass women because they feel entitled to.

"Instead of agreeing an equitable share with our partners, which presumably we are all capable of doing, apparently even now women would rather do the wife work , resent it, call it wife work and complain about it."

See the bit I don't agree with here is "which presumably we're all capable of doing."

Not all women are in the position of having a partner who will pay any attention if she tries to get him to take on some of the wifework. Which is in itself a feminist issue.

And I said no such thing on the sexual harassment thread. I made quite clear I was only referring to my own experiences.

I find it interesting that there are a fair number of threads about this. Not only for FWR either but about the Relationships forum too. There is a fair amount of crossover between the two. In fact a number of people post in both.

Both forums basically boil down to say, women you shouldn't have to endure the shit men throw at you. It's about naming the problem: men's abuse/patriarchy/men's violence/misogyny. FWR tends to look at it on a more systemic, societal level, Relationships on an individual level.

But they both say 'No More' to men. I really think that's what gets people's goat. Women are supposed to be in relationships with men. Women are supposed to please men:

"Similarly there was an extremely rude response to one of the few male posters whose own post had been utterly misinterpreted." Oh dear. That never happens anywhere else but FWR does it?

callin stop making up things I haven't said. Your position seems to be unless I say I agree with feminism I should not post here.

As I have said several times over there are subjects which have been discussed where my views are in line with the concensus, where I may even be in accordance with a radical feminist view point.

There are other subjects where I have disagreed strongly. "Wife work" for example - basically that which makes day to day life work for us and our families. Instead of agreeing an equitable share with our partners, which presumably we are all capable of doing, apparently even now women would rather do the wife work , resent it, call it wife work and complain about it.

You haven't clarified which version of feminism I'm supposed to agree with to pass the entry test. As you will see from Tondelay's post Louise Mensch for exsmple would fail. Most liberal feminists presumably too.

Of course you can, but if you come on a thread say, about sexual harassment, to say that men only harass women because women are so attractive and men can't help it then you're going to get your arse handed to you. That's what I mean. Still seemed upset at having her views challenged on feminism threads but if she doesn't agree with feminism, ie the basic ideas that form the foundation of the board, then that's going to happen pretty often. If she's aware of that then there's no problem I suppose.

I haven't a clue who still is, but surely anyone can comment on here who is interested in feminism? If you have come on just to be goady, that is a different matter.

To go back to the religion analogy, if I go on a religion thread and someone says "when babies are baptised their original sin is washed away" why would I get involved in that conversation, seeing as I am not religious and don't believe in religion? If I go on to that thread and say "no actually all that happens is that their head gets wet," what response am I expecting? "Ah yes, I've changed my mind my whole religion is rubbish" or am I expecting quite a negative response to someone who clearly fundamentally disagrees with what I believe?

On the feminist boards we discuss issues from a feminist point of view. If you believe feminism is rubbish then you will just hit a brick wall constantly.

Hmmm. I admit I may have noticed that once or twice. Some people are more assertive than others too. Takes all sorts. Just pick it up at the time.

The reason I was asking was because Still was saying she didn't agree with feminism and found the way things are discussed on the feminism board frustrating. I think she finds it that way because she and the posters on the board are starting from two very fundamentally different viewpoints. Which makes me wonder why she engages with feminism at all - does she want to convince feminists there's no need for feminism?

GF, it's not so much whether still agrees or disagrees with various feminist positions, it's that it so often seems to annoy her in a personal way that others differ.

"But why come on the feminist board if you don't agree with feminism?"

Sounded a bit like that. Is this a language problem?

I like learning on here. You only do that by exploring different viewpoints and thereby challenging your own. I don't know as much about feminism as some others but generally people are supportive of us exploring issues they already know loads about, so I don't recognise that aspect of the op.

GF, I don't think Cailin means that still shouldn't post.