I thought I was a feminist until someone showed me this forum.

I would also add when I was younger was one of those who thought 'we have had a female prime minister, the Equality Act whats the big deal"

Well I think this forum has helped me a lot with unconscious behaviors and language that I had used, and has helped me change it. I hope to pass on those behaviors to my son and we will have a proper talk about consent and relationships.

I find now I get really annoyed by the irate strawman posts people write about feminists.

BUUUFFFFFYYY, where are you?

If anyone has any info on the apparent disappearance of Buffy, our FWR backbone, please report to the pub! I wouldn't mind knowing where Still is either.

I'm going to re-phrase a bit of my post, as some twat will quote half a sentence back at me on some other thread:

It's ridiculous to suppose feminism implies any inherent inequality of value between the sexes.

When feminists talk about equality, we mean "the inequality in perception and treatment" that disadvantages women. We take it as read that women and men have equal worth as human beings.

It's ridiculous to suppose we mean women are inferior beings, and nobody on this earth thinks feminists believe that.

You've put up a straw man (or woman, heh.)

*Feminism isn't about embracing "the fact that women are equal with men" - feminism is about recognising that women should be equal with men and are not currently. And that is not to be embraced but to be fought against.

So I'm guessing you weren't a feminist to start with.*

...which is exactly why some people do shy away from this board. Women ARE equal to men. They are just as clever, just as able, just as driven, just as lazy, just as human. It is societal inequality which we should all be getting together to fight, and yet people who fundamentally agree with each other, and fundamentally agree with what the poster meant are nitpicking terminology. Meanwhile the inequality in perception and treatment continues because we make ourselves look ridiculous and are therefore perceived by the misogynists as a bunch of belligerent harpies, so we can be conveniently pigeon holed and ignored, rather than actually getting on and chipping away at the real problems.

So if this board, or at least some of the posts, are discouraging those of us with an interest in feminism from participating, how are feminists perceived by those whom we are trying to change?

Yes indeed we are very privileged to have access to the FWR "Regulars" frankly I don't know where I'd be without them.

"Why do you think that?" may sometimes be a veiled attack, but I'd generally read it as it is: "What is it that causes you to think this way, what is your reasoning?". But then I'm a science teacher, so I ask and answer that question A LOT in every day life.

I'm an occasional visitor to the feminist section here and I've seen very little evidence of 'radicals' or 'bullies' or 'our way or No way' thinking.

I do sometimes feel I'm not articulate/well-read/well-informed enough compared to some of the posters on these threads, but that's my problem. And I always enjoy reading them.

I do wonder though if I see someone making a racist statement and call them a racist because of it have I done wrong?

Yes, it's the standard ad hominem rule that applies everywhere (though often broken.) "That's a stupid remark" isn't a personal attack. "You are stupid" is. Now and again, MNHQ seems to get this wrong - or give in to clamour - but rarely, ime. I didn't see the exchange with Buffy above.

On this board and many others, there can be a tendency to make assumptions about a poster based on a poorly worded or misunderstood argument. I completely understand why this happens and it's often a fair assumption. Ideally, an innocent 'target' would come back and reframe their pov, but I don't think failure to do so is proof of guilt.

On the other hand, you get a lot of posters insisting genuine "Why do you think that?" type of questions are veiled attacks. That's ridiculous. The proper way to handle such questions is to answer or ignore. Typed conversation loses inflexion, especially in parsimonious languages like English, so it's more civil to take possible attacks as kindly meant until proved otherwise :) Again, though, I wouldn't blame anyone for not bothering - but those exchanges shouldn't be deleted.

I've long suspected that MN is not terribly keen on the intellectual rigour of this section (not from me I hasten to add) and last night's rash of deletions rather confirms that. Not within the spirit of the brand.

Lovecat - agree with you 100%

I always thought of strident as hectoring- that particular tone that Thatcher's voice took on sometimes- but used to describe any woman's voice raised above "soft, gentle and low".

I do think there is milage to be had in a discussion about why so many women are so very opposed to the idea of feminism- which I think informs some of the criticism of these boards. But I am too scared to start a thread about it..........

Late to the party but having read what happened with Buffy's post I would be aggrieved in her shoes. I may often disagree with people on here but even when people think I am a goady horrible b*h of a troll I wouldn't report it. Sometimes people say things in the heat of the moment, sometimes people want to provoke a different thought pattern but short of really personal attack things should stay on the board. I hate when people asked that they message be deleted because at the time it was written people see it and part of that message may stay in the memory. HQ should let things stand unless it is a personal attack the victim feels upset about.

I do wonder though if I see someone making a racist statement and call them a racist because of it have I done wrong?

No worries

yonic - having reread my earlier post I'm sorry I singled you out which was a bit rude of me. I was just trying to say that where I dont agree with or fully 'get' a poster I don't think that should be an issue. Hmm I can sense I'm digging a hole here....

I now realise it's coming from the same place as "stridulations" in insects. Have to say I quite like stridulations too...

OK thanks for the clarification re "strident". I wasn't aware of its history and so I take it back. I still maintain I quite like it as a word (minus those associations) - for me it has (or had) connotations of striding, strength or purposefulness, rather than something negative or belittling, and that was the spirit I used it in.

So maybe what I meant to say to describe the FWR topic is "purposefully intellectual" or some such.

I'll also join the defence of Buffy, always the most measured poster. I have always enjoyed chatting with her on FWR (and other) threads (I'm a regular namechanger but have been around a long time) precisely because I know it's not going to get personal or unpleasant.

I disagree Jackie. Sometimes, certainly, some posters say things about FWR with an agenda to provoke but often it's MNers with a negative impression of the section.

There are sections on MN I don't particularly like; I tend not to post there though or just join in the odd thread that interests me rather than make a general criticism.

Yes a lot of this furore over the threads in this vein atm are just thinly veiled anti-feminist activism.

"I like FWR because disagreements are discussed and debated in a respectful way, even when it gets heated I find that it's still civil and replies are considered and thought out, unlike Aibu or relationships for example, so I find it odd that FWR is the board with the hostile reputation."

I agree with this.

It's very nice to read these lovely posts after a lot of horrible posts recently. I love FWR, it's a great place to read interesting views and it's changed my mind about quite a few issues.

Thanks Lovecat for your kind words.

It's also great reading how FWR is helping others with their lives too.

I want to add another thank you to the FWR boards and the very helpful, in depth discussions that take place here. I thought I wasn't a feminist until I read this section
I like FWR because disagreements are discussed and debated in a respectful way, even when it gets heated I find that it's still civil and replies are considered and thought out, unlike Aibu or relationships for example, so I find it odd that FWR is the board with the hostile reputation.

This place has saved my sanity on many occasions. I don't post much, but I read it and absorb.