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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Men and women are just different and have different skills and talents"

186 replies

reddaisy · 14/04/2015 09:50

I have heard so many variations on that comment that I really need to properly articulate my objections.

My belief is that gender differences are often as a result of learnt behaviour and most of us are all complicit even if it just means buying a 'little monster' t-shirt for a boy.

Following on from the boat race thread where it was argued that for true equality, men and women should compete against each other, it is clear that there are biological differences between the sexes which impact on their performances.

I keep reading conflicting scientific reports on the differences between men and women's brain and what, if anything, that actually means about different skills/intelligence etc.

So, can we talk about this and explore the perceived innate differences between men and women?

OP posts:
almondcakes · 14/04/2015 21:48

In my experience, feminists do conform to the feminine personality stereotype - they are compassionate, have empathy for others, are good at co-operation and care about what happens to other people.

Otherwise, why would they join a collective liberation movement?

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 14/04/2015 21:46

Sorry I assume that was at me and I'm not sure what I've said to draw what feels a bit attacky.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 14/04/2015 21:45

Was that for me? I don't think I'm exceptional Confused

I do think that lots of women who identify as feminists don't have personalities that conform to stereotype, from lots of threads on here, but that kind of makes sense doesn't it?

almondcakes · 14/04/2015 21:43

I think this thread is getting all a bit 'I'm the exceptional woman!' as it invariably does.

BertieBotts · 14/04/2015 21:35

Oops that was in response to "Boys are allowed to have reptiles"

BertieBotts · 14/04/2015 21:35

And tarantulas.

I used to love the Animal Ark books too. And I had loads of vet-related toys. The caring thing isn't just dolls, it's animals too.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 14/04/2015 21:34

Depends what you mean by "nurturing" - in the sense of looking after vulnerable and so forth then yes. To women it's presented as this self-sacrificing thing where you gain enormous amounts of satisfaction from slaving around after other people the whole time which is a different proposition.

I would say I am "not nurturing" in the sense that it is generally expected a mother should be. I think I'm basically decent though Grin

almondcakes · 14/04/2015 21:28

Everyone should be good at nurturing. It should be a basic of human decency.

Actually that is what femininity is in general - the basics of being a decent human being.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 14/04/2015 21:18

Animals and you Grin yes that's the sort of thing I'm talking about!

Thinking about it you're right, pets in general are "for girls" aren't they, animals which are actually kept as pets. Boys get fantasy pets like dinosaurs and tigers and crocodiles and there is focus on adventuring with them not looking after them. It comes back to teaching girls to be nurturing doesn't it, that that is their role. Although obviously lots of females are a bit shit on the nurturing front (and then sometimes/often run into all sorts of trouble emotionally etc when they have kids) and loads of men are v nurturing.

Reptiles! Boys are allowed to have reptiles as pets.

BertieBotts · 14/04/2015 21:04

I'm sure it's the caring thing Whirlpool. Horses are a rather high maintenance pet as pets go. I think dogs are the only pet associated as masculine really. I used to read "Animals and you" magazine in the 90s which was all about puppies, kittens and rabbits and such and sometimes horses. The horse/pony mags are still around for girls, too.

BertieBotts · 14/04/2015 21:01

Er, I wasn't struggling at all, just pointing out a trend of horseriding being seen as a female activity, most people who do "normal" horseriding ie not competitive racing then look after their own horses. It's about the relationship with the horse, much like many motorbike enthusiasts feel an affinity to their bike.

Whereas jockeying is more male dominated, and a different thing.

I have to smile at the idea that young girls from rich families ride horses and young boys play rugby, because this exactly describes my half siblings. Though they are not rich. My stepmother is interested in horses and always has been. It is her who is the horserider, although my dad rides occasionally, and certainly mucks out the horses when it needs doing, it's not his passion. My half sister adores horses and ponies. Absolutely lives and breathes them. DBro is tall and stocky and lives in Wales, so of course he plays rugby. It would be against some kind of law if he did not Grin

I would say DDad and SM definitely aspire to that sort of lifestyle, but anyway. This is getting somewhat off the point.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 14/04/2015 20:55

Does anyone know what the things about girls and ponies/horses is?

It baffled me as a child and still does! There used to be whole magazines about girls and ponies in the 80s IIRC.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 14/04/2015 20:54

There is no question that horse / pony related things are aimed primarily at girls in the UK and have been for years.

I have never understood why Confused

But for sure, my little pony et al are not "for boys" that is quite obvious!

And little girls are encouraged to ride (if they have rich families) in a way that they are not encouraged to eg play rugby which is also something that happens among the better off.

Is it a hangover from ideas around poshness and wealth and stuff I wonder.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 14/04/2015 20:50

So the expendable line is an excuse to control and limit women and girl's behaviour, while not actually treating them as "valuable" (or whatever the opposite is) at all.

So we get all of the downside of "being protected" while not actually being protected.

Yes that sounds about right.

eg don't go out after dark / alone / home with a man / etc etc etc BUT if you get attacked by someone you know (much more likely) then fuck all will be done about it.

StillLostAtTheStation · 14/04/2015 20:49

Horseriding usually involves taking care of the horse, though. Caring/nurturing = a female activity. There are more male jockeys (I think?) and a jockey doesn't usually take care of the horse they ride directly. (I'm woolly on this though so could be wrong!)

In a competitive racing situation horses will be looked after by the stable boys and girls i.e grooms(the juniors being referred to as boy or girl). The vast majority of people who have horses aren't jockeys. I think you're really struggling to try to make this into some sort of female activity, that's certainly not my experience coming from a horsey background.

People look after their own horses unless rich enough to have their own grooms. My brother probably does more than my sister-in-law for their horses.

BertieBotts · 14/04/2015 20:48

Yes. Totally agree Whirlpool. Women are constantly aware of men and assessing the threat level, I reckon, but our instinct to then minimise the threat seems to jump first to not antagonising the person, and only second to getting away. If we fear that getting away would appear rude or antagonistic it's much harder for us to do it. And in fact it is often greeted with shock and considered rude. I have never ever forgotten, although I have lost the link, the article describing in minute detail an interaction between a young woman and a pervy man at a bus stop. She was not applauded for getting away.

Buffy :) - but you have to admit that in general society the "good triumphing over evil" trope is usually considered a positive thing. Which I find bizarre because who decides good and who decides evil?

almondcakes · 14/04/2015 20:46

I don't agree with the expendable thing either. If societies view women as less expendable, why are all the 'missing' children from sex selective abortions female? Isn't son preference a common global phenomenon? What about all the evidence that females are less likely to receive adequate nutrition and health care globally than males?

This males are expendable thing is just MRA bullshit.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 14/04/2015 20:35

YY I don't like the expendable thing either, that's generally how the people who talk about men being natural risk-takers phrase it though.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 14/04/2015 20:34

I mean my creepy man radar is on pretty much all the time and has been since puberty really.

WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 14/04/2015 20:32

Bertie agree with all of that in your longer post, for sure there is pecking order and wariness stuff going on between men a lot.

However I would say that most women and girls are on some level aware of threat towards them a lot of the time as well. It probably doesn't manifest in the same way, but for sure I wouldn't say that women are immune from being aware of potential threats around them IYSWIM. The difference is that women and girls aren't expected to fight back, really, if something happens. So the threat assessment isn't "am I going to have to have a fight" it's more" is someone going to attack me". Of course plenty of women can fight and plenty of men can't but the socialisation around these messages is quite straightforward for the sexes.

BuffyEpistemiwhatsit · 14/04/2015 20:30

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BuffyEpistemiwhatsit · 14/04/2015 20:28

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WhirlpoolGalaxyM51 · 14/04/2015 20:27

YY things that women do that are so very risky are not recognised as such.

So things that men do = "risk" with the associated ideas around bravery, even if reckless
Things that women do = "life"

There is a lot of socialisation around risk taking as well. Girls are strongly discouraged from taking risks, maybe because of a deep rooted thing around preserving the ones that have the babies. So the idea goes that men take more risks as they are "expendable" - how about the other way - that because women are less "expendable" they are restricted, socialised and otherwise prevented and discouraged from taking risks...?

BertieBotts · 14/04/2015 20:24

Horseriding usually involves taking care of the horse, though. Caring/nurturing = a female activity. There are more male jockeys (I think?) and a jockey doesn't usually take care of the horse they ride directly. (I'm woolly on this though so could be wrong!)

BertieBotts · 14/04/2015 20:20

There was a recent thread about questions you've always wanted to ask the opposite sex. I found it very interesting, mostly lighthearted/tongue in cheek, no expectation that one was talking for all members of a sex but there was a lot of engagement from both sides, no insisting that one way was right and no bollocks about biology. Of course various posters may have had their own beliefs about where certain behaviours/mindsets had come from, fair enough, it wasn't brought onto the thread.

Something that really surprised me and I'd never really thought about before was that several men said that men in general are on constant alert for signs of violence from other men, mentally sizing each other up to judge whether they are a threat, even in an everyday context like work or among strangers the thought is always there and it's a part of how social hierarchies are enforced. It came up in a discussion about why men don't often challenge sexism.

That made me think several things. Firstly that men must learn this from a fairly young age, that this is just how the world works. Smacking children is not common any more, but when it was it wasn't that parents had to do it all the time, the threat would largely be enough. In lieu of smacking, a lot of parenting still involves using the adult's strength to overpower the child - the ultimate message being "it doesn't matter what you do or say, I am stronger than you and that means I will always win". Playground or sibling squabbles happen and often get physical, and yes are dealt with but I think that breaking up the fight, forced apologies, time out etc do nothing for the actual changes which have happened within the hierarchy, which the children involved will be aware of. If you look at all the messages given in children's media and with toys etc, girls are all about friendship, love, caring/nurturing and being likeable (often by being pretty but in other ways too), and boys are given messages about perseverance, loyalty (not friendship), competition (being the fastest, strongest, best) and the clincher, good beating evil, overwhelmingly in a physical fight.

So then secondly having understood that this is the case, as boys and young men they have several opportunities to try this out. School playground as mentioned, football/general pub violence as Buffy said, the competitive nature of the sports boys are encouraged into, play, stories they read/watch, the idea that it's acceptable, even noble, to assault a man who has stolen your girlfriend or hurt a close female friend/relative. Just like men usually don't see the pressure on women to look a certain way despite being exposed to exactly the same stimulus, or seem surprised when it's pointed out that magazines etc encourage this insecurity I think we (women) largely miss this angle as it's not aimed directly at us. But for men, the idea of violence and dominance is so ingrained by adulthood that it is normal and so it always prevails as a back up plan of sorts for dealing with conflict. Hence, men who don't learn other skills of conflict management are more likely to fall back on violence (or non violent physical force, which may be an oxymoron). But it's not an innate thing, the signs are always there.

Lastly the cycle is perpetuated, because it seems so harmless. Just like we say to little girls, without thinking, "Oh your dress is so pretty!" we say to boys "Wow, you are so strong!" and talk merrily about beating the bad guys, as though the bad guys were objectively bad and didn't just stand for somebody that you disagree with.

It's so prevalent, I have a 6yo DS who is obsessed with being the fastest, who loves superheroes, talks often about punching and killing and it's just impossible to counteract these messages when they come so thick and fast.