Adultery and feminism?

"She probably felt that she wanted a one-night stand and took it, making it a feminist action because she made her choice and wasn't interested in a relationship, just a shag."

I don't understand this - I'm a feminist and I've just cleaned the loo, not because I'm a woman but because it needed cleaning and there was no one else to do it. I made a choice to do so, but it wasn't a feminist action.

Agree with your points about the wider context of adultery, Basil. But I still think that even enlightened and politically aware feminists can do stupid things sometimes. (I'm not saying you would potentially shag a married man; I'm 99% sure I wouldn't myself; but humans can be pretty dumb when sex and booze are concerned.)

She probably felt that she wanted a one-night stand and took it, making it a feminist action...

If I'm a Conservative but think that we should increase taxes, that doesn't make it a Conservative attitude.

I thought that Choice Feminism meant that a choice made by a woman is by definition a feminist choice. My interpretation of the earlier discussion was that saying the opposite of this - just because a woman makes a choice, doesn't make it a feminist choice and, a step further, just because a feminist makes a choice, doesn't make a feminist choice.

Ask it's not your shorthand that offends me but your comments such as, if you're into choosy-choice feminism, then chances are you're not going to have a feminist consciousness, are you?

Basil, I've always seen choice feminism as a more individualist approach.

She probably felt that she wanted a one-night stand and took it, making it a feminist action because she made her choice and wasn't interested in a relationship, just a shag.

'Is this just related to feminism and having choices about how to conduct oneself however the hell one pleases as a woman?

Yes, I think she'd probably rationalise it like that. That the choice was also his, and if he'd wanted to stay faithful, then he should have, but that he was fully consenting. Feminists shouldn't be held to higher standards than other people is often said, and in reality the adultery was on his part, unless she's also married.
Why did you call her a girl? Is she so much younger than you and your husband? Do you think that he coerced her or put undue pressure on her to have sex with him?

I don't think it's unfair, I think it's a political disagreement.

I see choosy choice feminism as an individualist approach and I'm broadly a collectivist. I just think individualism is always going to fall down in terms of allowing people to consider the wider consequences of their actions, than a collectivist attitude.

I accept that other people will disagree with me, I don't think it's unfair for them to do so.

" However, if you're into choosy-choice feminism, then chances are you're not going to have a feminist consciousness, are you?"

I think this is unfair.

I wasn't sneering at anyone Vivacia, I'm using shorthand which I'm sorry offends you. I didn't even notice your post tbh, so I'm sorry if you think I've specifically targeted you, I didn't, I'm trying to give my honest reactions to what the OP has raised which is an issue I've not really thought very much about before.

You seem to be implying that I'm discussing something else but I'm not sure if I am.

Anyway OP, I haven't said how very sorry I am that you're going through this, but I hope you know I am.

I think that the discussion has moved on to "is adultry and its outcomes a feminist issue" when most of us up thread (who you sneer at as "choosy-choice" feminists) were discussing the opening idea that OW can't be feminists.

Oh I don't think it's about judging individual women for their feminism (or their behaviour), I think it's about analysing whether or how adultery can be analysed from a feminist POV.

And of course, choosy-choice feminism is individualist, so it doesn't really give you a feminist analysis of adultery.

I'm just thinking that thirty years ago, I didn't have a feminist analysis of the world. I was a self-declared feminist, I believed in feminist ideas but I reckon if the situation had arisen, I might have been perfectly capable of shagging someone else's boyf/ husband because I wouldn't have been able to see any contradiction between that behviour and feminist ideas. Whereas now I can, because my analysis is different, my beliefs are different, which therefore informs my behaviour, IYSWIM. I'm not interested in justifying it or finding excuses for it as I might have been then. I'm not willing to embrace the denial required to find a man who behaves this way acceptable to have in my bed and my body, I'd find him sexually unattractive anyway, which would pretty much stop any of that in its tracks.

I'm just thinking that if people have different beliefs, then their behaviour is different. I don't see that as judging someone for not being a good enough feminist, it's about recognising that people are at different places politically and that will inform their behaviour.

I agree with all your points, Basil, but I think that judging individual women as to whether they are proper feminists or not is a really unhelpful byway to go down, for all sorts of reasons. Is it not better to say, 'Yes, she may be a feminist in terms of her political views, but she is also a bit of a shit?'

Ah that's part of it, women having to compete for men, younger women vs older, the social and economic dynamics of being with a man and having that set-up threatened by another woman.

One of the things that happens to an older woman whose husband leaves her for a younger woman, is that she is often plunged into poverty or at least has to accept a standard of living below that which she formerly had. Her ability to function in the workplace and therefore her wages & pension are affected, her social status is lowered (because single mothers are still condemned while the men who had children with them aren't) and of course her life in many cases will get far more difficult than it was as she has to raise children alone.

How can that not be a feminist issue?

If you have a feminist consciousness, I don't see how you can not get that someone who is cheating on his partner, is treating her abysmally and that he's doing so because he can. The power relations both personally and socially - and economically - allow him to do so. Quite simply, he has more power than the woman he lives with. If someone had a feminist consciousness it would be impossible to miss. However, if you're into choosy-choice feminism, then chances are you're not going to have a feminist consciousness, are you?

She can give herself any label she likes... feminist...philanthropist..free spirit. I have a label for her. She's a complete shit and so is your DH. Why are you so calm about this? Why are you intellectualising the situation? Did this happen some time ago?

AskB that about hits it on the head for me. Thinking a bit more this afternoon, I don't know if this applies to the OP, maybe, as she calls the OW a girl, but I do think there are issues with men having affairs between older/younger women and how older women are valued/not valued in society generally. If she's a younger woman is she happy to use the power that brings to support it all being about men/young women and older women are just - well OK they're handy for looking after the kids and the ageing parents, but no-ones really interested in them, they're out of the game. Does she want to live in a world like that? Or perhaps its just pointless fighting the biology.
OP, she's a crappy feminist, but at least you didn't marry her. I hope you're OK.

I think women placing themselves in competition for individual men is absolutely something that bothers me as a feminist

men getting away with behaviour like this goes against feminism because they are often in a better position to do so especially if his female partner has made herself dependent on his sticking around

what is your situation now, op ?

it isn't a feminist issue.

He is a cheating bastard and she is arsehole.

I hope you didnt just take this bull shit on the chin?

I think if someone in a relationship with another woman came on to me, I couldn't avoid facing up to all the following:

How he treats his wife/ partner at home, what his view of her is
Why he has so little loyalty to her
What he must be telling her to enable him to be coming on to me
Has he done this before

There's an awareness at the back of my mind that someone who engages in an affair, is emotionally abusing their partner to a greater or lesser degree: you have to in order to pursue the affair. You have to lie and gaslight and deny the reality of what's happening - your partner is going to sense that your attention and energy is elsewhere, away from your family and you're going to have to deny that reality, leaving them confused and doubting and anxious. It's extraordinarily cruel to put someone through that and in order to ignore that cruelty and continue to pursue an affair with someone, you'd have to be in denial about the cruelty of it.

I just don't know if it's possible to embrace that cognitive dissonance once you've taken the feminism pill. The abusiveness of it is too bloody obvious. I don't know what point I'm making in terms of it being a feminist issue, but I simply cannot imagine being able to sweep everything I know about power relations and emotional abuse and denial under the carpet for a shag. For me, not being able to embrace the cognitive dissonance you need to in order to have an affair with someone who is in a LTR with another woman, is largely down to a feminist consciousness which wasn't there when I was younger. I could probably have thought of myself as a feminist and shagged someone else's boyf/ husband and been able to embrace the cognitive dissonance that that course of action would hve involved; but I just can't imagine being able to do that now.

In conclusion I think it is a feminist issue, but I'm still not entirely sure how.

Sorry you're going through this.

Where did you hear what you have written. From her/colleague of theirs or husband? That could affect the truth of it.

I absolutely think this is a feminist issue for two reasons.

Sisterhood and solidarity is a big part of feminism for me. We should be supporting our sisters not sleeping with their husbands.

Your focusing on her part of it. That being said, this is a thread on feminism about your husband cheating with her. Of course it will be focused on her and of course you will blame them both.

Hope you can get over this and here's a very mumsnetty LTB!!!!

Really sorry your husband cheated on you.

Shagging a married man certainly shows a lack of solidarity with other women. But feminists can do stupid and nasty things too; and being a feminist is ultimately a political position, not a personal one.

I think this is about feminism in that you're focusing on the woman's role in this situation and not your DH's.

I think she is right in that the feminist position would be that the man is responsible for his behaviour as he is the one who has made promises and commitments to you and your children.

It is completely shitty situation though and I am really angry on your behalf that you and your children have been treated this way by your H.

sisterhood and solidarity isn't about agreeing with/supporting other's choices though, it's about valuing other women and prioritising their interests. Not always of course but in general. And this would be a case in point, you shouldn't put your own transitory interests above those of another woman (and her children)

I think the feminist issue is how easy and how often the men's behaviour is ignored/accepted/minimised or just under less scrutiny than a woman's behaviour.

I don't feel that this is a feminist issue. For me feminism isn't about us all agreeing with each others' choices ("sisterhood and solidarity") it's about agreeing that we should all have the freedom to make choices.

feminism is also about sisterhood and solidarity with other women
so you don't go and do something that might harm another woman

I do think its a feminist issue if there are children involved. Not many men would take the children with them if their relationship breaks up due to an affair, either theirs or their partners. With relationship break-up, the man will end up probably both with more spare money than previously, and in a considerably better position to pursue another relationship. It is, like Teitetua says, harder for a woman to leave (as the alternative is worse than it would be for a man), and men can take advantage of this. So women that help them do that, not in the sisterhood really for my money.

Also, men don't (generally) have to make arrangements for their children when they are elsewhere. So, the 'other woman' is maybe taking advantage of the wife's free labour in looking after the children, so she can have sex with the husband.