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Original poster

'Sussex Police is taking an innovative approach' to their new Rape awareness campaign

137 replies

DuelingFanjo · 08/04/2015 14:26

story

Innovative my arse.
Their Twitter response has been "we are not blaming victins! We can reduce number of victims in many ways. Friends can play a key role"

I would like to know which activities do they consider to be vulnerable and risky? Maybe just being a woman? Going out? Drinking?

OP posts:
BuffyEpistemiwhatsit · 09/04/2015 20:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DragonWithAGirlTattoo · 09/04/2015 20:17

i didnt say he deserved it, what i said was that he would be blamed, I wouldnt blame him, but there are

according to www.rapecrisis.org.uk/commonmyths2.php
"But in fact, only around 10% of rapes are committed by 'strangers'."
thats still a lot of rape, and maybe some of those could have been stopped

"Given that statistically you are much more likely to know your attacker this kind of 'stick with your mates' advice is bullshit."
right ok - lets tell all out young ladies (and men) out there, dont bother sticking with your mates and looking after them???

BuffyEpistemiwhatsit · 09/04/2015 20:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
DuelingFanjo · 09/04/2015 19:56

What if the friend you stick with is also your rapist? You are in a vulnerable position then too. Given that statistically you are much more likely to know your attacker this kind of 'stick with your mates' advice is bullshit.

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Original poster
DuelingFanjo · 09/04/2015 19:54

I wonder, dragon, if you would use he same 'flashing cash' analogy when deciding whether or not to sympathise with a rape victim?

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DragonWithAGirlTattoo · 09/04/2015 19:53

in an ideal world, we would all be able to go anywhere, and do anything without fear of attack. we dont live in an ideal world, but we do live in a world where we can sometimes chose not to put ourselves in vulnerable positions.

StillLostAtTheStation · 09/04/2015 19:45

You are mixing up civil law and criminal law. The contract of insurance may have exclusions for being daft (although having thought I had lost a very expensive phone recently in fairly daft circumstances my insurers only required me to report it to the police).

How would I describe an "opportinistc theft" - simple "theft".

Your comments about "flashing his card around" just emphasise how ridiculous your position is. Victim blaming is wrong there too.

DragonWithAGirlTattoo · 09/04/2015 18:54

and again, i disagree with "the only person who has the power to make any crime "avoidable" is the potential perpetrator."

this is just saying that anyone can do anything to you and you have no power, what kind of bullshit is this?

what i think you mean is

"the only person who has the power to make some crimes "avoidable" is the potential perpetrator."

how would you describe an opportunist theft then? do i have no responsibility if i leave my phone on the bus and someone steals it, of course i do - thats why insurance companies have 'due care and attention'

DragonWithAGirlTattoo · 09/04/2015 18:51

" . If a man wearing a Rolex watch and carrying a Louis Vuitton briefcase gets drunk and they are stolen no one suggests he is to blame. If anything there is more sympathy if he was blind drunk "

i disagree, if he is 'flashing his cash' around, he is blamed, and he is also ridiculed if he was drunk

StillLostAtTheStation · 09/04/2015 17:57

I find your argument about "avoidable crime" untenable . If a man wearing a Rolex watch and carrying a Louis Vuitton briefcase gets drunk and they are stolen no one suggests he is to blame. If anything there is more sympathy if he was blind drunk and didn't know what was happening. And that's right. The moral, decent thing to do is not to mug him.

The only person who has the power to make any crime "avoidable" is the potential perpetrator. The mugger who looks at Rolex bloke and thinks "poor sod, hope he's ok" rather than seeing him as an opportunity has avoided committing a crime.

TheCrowFromBelow · 09/04/2015 17:40

I don't disagree about teaching safety on a night out and it extends to men as well as women.

However, the flipside of the message that raped or being beaten up is avoidable if you stay with your friends is that if, for whatever reason, you choose to leave by yourself and you get raped or beaten up, it's your fault or your friend's fault, because you could have avoided it.

Whereas a campaign focussing on the behaviour of rapists and attackers, rather than telling victims how to avoid them, would place all of the blame where it lies and not make victims feel like it's their fault.

DragonWithAGirlTattoo · 09/04/2015 17:27

no one is saying the rapist is not wrong, i just dont like the idea that its unavoidable, because in some cases it is avoidable

by saying this doesnt lessen the behaviour of the rapist or make it any less horrific, and thats what i feel a lot of people are saying, that if some/any of the 'guilt' is on the victim or their friends, then its less on the attacker.

we should be teaching our children to stick together, to lessen the risk, not say 'well they shouldnt be doing it in the first place' - we ALL know that they shouldnt be doing it in the first place, thats not even an argument

scallopsrgreat · 09/04/2015 17:26

"not absolving us of our own actions" What actions are these then that we shouldn't be 'absolved' of? Wanting to be able to walk around alone? Go home with a man without being raped by him? Losing track of a friend in a night club? ...

Or raping someone?

Which needs the greater absolution there I wonder. You are comparing actions that we should be able to do but are having restricted because of these shitty anti-rape campaigns with actions of violent men.

And no-one on this thread is saying don't be a friend to someone.

Loving the responses to the petition!

TheCrowFromBelow · 09/04/2015 17:22

my post was todragon btw...

TheCrowFromBelow · 09/04/2015 17:22

But not all women who stagger off drunk down an alley get raped; your hypothetical friend might well have known the person she staggered off with.
stranger rape accounts for a really small proportion of rape. And saying it's avoidable DOES push the guilt back onto the victim rather than the perpetrator.

It should be challenged, this view that young girls can prevent being raped by sticking together, just as rape as a feminist issue should be challenged. It's not a "women's issue" it is one for society as a whole to deal with, and IMO that starts with telling rapists that they're wrong, not that it's the victim's fault for not sticking with her mates.

Original poster
DuelingFanjo · 09/04/2015 17:04

I love some of the responses on the petition

"The poster suggests that it is not safe for women to go out on their own. As a grown adult living in a civilised society I expect to be able to anywhere I like and not be raped simply for being alone. . Are the men in Sussex really that dangerous? What are the police doing about this?"

"Sussex Police think women are to be blamed for thinking they can go where they want, when they want and with whom they wish. Their twitter replies are equally alarming, equally upsetting and truly disturbing"

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DragonWithAGirlTattoo · 09/04/2015 17:02

I'm not trying to be inflamatory at all, but i do think this is a valid view point

DragonWithAGirlTattoo · 09/04/2015 17:00

But if your friends actions (keeping an eye on you) would have stopped the attack (lets take this away from rape and make it less emotive, lets make it a mugging) how could they not feel guilty - even though its someone elses actions that caused the attack (by actually doing it)

we are all responsible for ourselves and our friends and people around us.....

Thats the issue, at this point, while not victim blaming - not absolving us of our own actions.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." so if you saw your friend being attacked, would you stand and watch? no? if you saw your friend staggering off down a dark alley, would you stop her? yes. what would happen if you saw your friend staggering, clearly drunk, down a dark alley and you didnt stop her are you absolved off ALL guilt? no you are not and i dont know how you think you can be. And just because you have some guilt does not lessen the guilt of the attacker - thats the real issue and question

Does someone who does not protect their friend take any guilt away from the attacker? no - it doesnt, the attacker is STILL as guilty as shit

PuffinsAreFictitious · 09/04/2015 16:09

Every. Single. Time. Rape is discussed you have some yahoo chime in with the "well, you should take some responsibility for other people's criminal behaviour, because, reasons.

So, let me be clear. I love my friends and family very much. However, it's not my place to police their movements. If one of them was raped, I would feel awful for them and would offer all my support and love to them, but it would not have been my responsibility that they were raped nor would the crime committed against them be their responsibility.

If I were raped after a night out it would in no way be my friend's responsibility that a crime was committed against me. Nor would it be mine. The onus of blame lies solely and completely with the rapist.

I would be horrified if my friends were made to feel responsible for the criminal behaviour of strangers. It is a disgusting thing to suggest.

scallopsrgreat · 09/04/2015 14:58

“cultural opposition to rape myths makes men less likely to commit assault, and acceptance of those myths makes sexual assault more likely” This.

cailindana · 09/04/2015 14:44

Dragon, I am legally responsible for my children, therefore if they are in my care and they get abducted/hurt my actions will be questioned. I love my friends and I do watch out for them but I don't need posters telling me I can prevent them getting assaulted. Why? Because 1) it's not my responsibility to prevent men committing crimes and 2) it's not even true. The vast vast majority of assaults are carried out by a woman's friends, family and acquaintances. No one could have prevented the two rapes I experienced - they both happened when I was 'safe' at home, not drunk, with people I thought I could trust. The same goes for nearly everyone I know who's been raped.
All the poster does is make women feel more frightened and responsible. And as usual men, the ones who actually commit the crimes, aren't even mentioned.

MadAsgardian · 09/04/2015 14:39

But where do you draw the line Dragon? My 9 year old is allowed out to play unsupervised. He is old enough to be resonsible and stick to boundaries. If someone took him should I shoulder some of the balme? What about when he is 12 and walking back and forth to school alone?

People are responsible for their actions. If you rape someone, you raped them because you are a rapist. You didn't rape them because their friends didn't keep an eye on them.

Original poster
DuelingFanjo · 09/04/2015 14:35

and read this

OP posts:
Original poster
DuelingFanjo · 09/04/2015 14:33

Looking after your friends is great. Telling a rape survivor's friends that they are partly to blame if their friend is raped is not OK.
Telling women that they are more vulnerable just because they are alone is not OK.

from the article I linked to:

"It’s not that we’re insufficiently aware of our own vulnerabilities; on the contrary, we’re all crushed by the constant reminders of how vulnerable we are. From early childhood we’re taught to be fearful of the wolf that lurks in the shadows. We’re reminded not to stray too far from the forest path or else we’ll get eaten up. We grow older, watching films and reading stories in which the rape and mutilation of women serve as common plot devices. We are told to think of ourselves as laptops, as unlocked doors, as open wallets, as property that anyone might take unless we’re locked safely away. We know we’re not meant to go outside. Outside might, statistically, be safer, but it doesn’t feel that way."

and

"Of course, it is not just women who will see posters such as this one. Rapists will, too. And what does this say to a rapist, if not “this is how things happen”? When women get drunk, when they meet strangers, when they wander off alone, this is how things work. Rape is what happens when women “make themselves vulnerable.” As Jill Filipovic points out, research has shown that “cultural opposition to rape myths makes men less likely to commit assault, and acceptance of those myths makes sexual assault more likely”:

In social groups where there is wide acceptance of rape myths – for example, the beliefs that acquaintance rape is a problem of communication or "mixed signals", that rapists simply can't control their sexual urges, that women often lie about rape, or that women invite rape upon themselves by their actions or manner of dressing – rape proclivity is higher. When men internalize rape myths, they are more likely to commit rape or see rape as more acceptable.

A woman can only make herself vulnerable if others have already learned to see her as potential prey."

Try to think beyond your 'women are just like children' Analogy...

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Original poster
DuelingFanjo · 09/04/2015 14:29

I am having a hard time trying to explain when people bang on about how it's just responsible to be aware of dangers just like telling people to protect their valuables.

I read this it makes sense.

Plus someone on twitter saying "This won't reduce number of victims, just means rape will happen to someone else" because that is true. Rape is not about vulnerability of the victim.

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