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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

There's a MRA standing for election in my area!!

114 replies

LadySybilLikesSloeGin · 08/04/2015 00:11

I'm just... Shock "Justice for Men and Boys"

"The human rights of men and boys in the United Kingdom have been increasingly assaulted by the state’s actions and inactions for over 30 years, as they have across much of the developed world. J4MB is the only political party in the English-speaking world campaigning for the human rights of men and boys, including the right of all children to enjoy good access to both parents following family breakdowns, and the restoration of fatherhood and strong families."

j4mb.wordpress.com

OP posts:
SolidGoldBrass · 09/04/2015 15:14

Those links make no mention of male-on-male violence when citing dubious statistics.
Though it's not impossible for men to be the victims of violent women it is rare. Most men who are abused by partners or family members are being abused by other men. Most boys who are sexually assaulted are assaulted by other boys and men.

I agree that help for all victims of domestic violence is underfunded and in insufficient supply. I also support, in principle, the idea that some refuges could be open to men/boys as well as women and girls (I appreciate that it can be difficult for a family fleeing from the abusive man to find a place if that family includes a teenage boy. Unfortunately, the teenage son of an abuser may be inclined to act out by means of violence himself - he is nowhere near as culpable as the man who trained him to see violence against women as acceptable, and he needs help, but the other women and girls and smaller boys in any refuge need to be safe from aggressive young males.) But there need to be safe spaces for women that are only accessible to women. And there is no reason why there shouldn't be male-only refuges from which women are barred, as well.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 09/04/2015 15:09

Since you are not standing for election in the USA, could you please quote some studies for the UK?

And I wont ask Mike because he isn't the one making claims on this thread.

JohnAllman · 09/04/2015 15:05

@ MontysMum8

66

"Roughly half of battered intimate partners are men, battered by women."

John, where are you getting your statistics from?

99

I'd prefer you to ask Mike Buchanan that question, because this is his field, not mine, but here's one source of relevant statistics, admittedly in the USA rather than the UK:

domesticviolenceresearch.org/pages/12_page_findings.htm

Here are a few more,

www.saveservices.org/2012/02/cdc-study-more-men-than-women-victims-of-partner-abuse/

www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/17596591211244166

dahmw.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/Common-Myths-about-Intimate-Partner-Violence-against-Men2012.pdf

I cannot find the best source I once had at the moment, which cited dozens if not hundreds of studies, but there's enough above to be going on with.

There is some disparity between different studies. How one poses questions does tend to affect the answers one gets. It is best to look for literature reviews, and meta-studies of studies, and then to access the primary sources that they cite.

Any study that is undertaken under the auspices of a gender-political group, or (say) a Women's Studies academic group, is likely to massage the statistics.

This is a hot potato topic. It's not MY topic though. Where I stand on gender politics is significantly different from where Mike Buchanan stands. See Masculism, Feminism and the Euro Tunnel.

scallopsrgreat · 09/04/2015 13:55

Another outing for this splendid image. Women are not as bad as men when it comes to violence. Violence is overwhelmingly gendered. Men are far more likely to perpetrate it. Women are far more likely to be victims of it.

It should also be noted that a significant number of women who kill their partners have been abused by them. The same is not true for men who kill their partners.

There's a MRA standing for election in my area!!
Yops · 09/04/2015 13:54

JohnAllman - you were kind enough to respond to my post, so I will repay the courtesy.

I am a white male. I am not an abuser, nor have I been abused, so I only have personal anecdata. The idea that women should not have somewhere they can go and feel safe from men, that there should not be women-only spaces, is an awful one. Some people will want them, some people will need them to feel safe. If men want similar, men-only spaces then they should have equal access. You don't fix an inequality by racing to the bottom. Well, not unless you are a Tory (a little bit of politics there, sorry).

I don't know much about you or your work, but I don't really like divisive, binary politics of any sort. Coming at a problem from the angle of only trying to fix something for a select group of people just feels wrong in my gut. All you will achieve is a pissing contest, and you end up in the sort of abuse top-trumps game you have kicked off here.

You might have some very valid and pertinent thing to say to me (as in my demographic). I just think this is the wrong way to go about it.

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 09/04/2015 12:37

"Roughly half of battered intimate partners are men, battered by women."

Is quite simply false. Other posters have already said it, but it bears repeating. The vast majority of perpetrators are men.

Yes, men are victims, but they are considerably less likely to be killed, hospitalised or subjected to sustained, repeated attacks. They are also far less likely to be in fear of their attacker, or to be financially abused, or to be the primary carer of children - which is what leads people to need and seek refuge. Yes, John- you can't state government acts until you're blue in the face, but the fact remains that women are more likely to be primary carer, and when they seek refuge from a violent partner, are unlikely to want to leave the children in his care.

There is help available for male victims - links can be found on the women's aid/ refuge sites, but it is essential that women and children victims can be given sanctuary in women only spaces.

Incidentally, I won't be asking Erin Pizzey anything at all, since she theorises that women crave the violence against them. Which is probably why all these MRAs like her so much.

Anniegetyourgun · 09/04/2015 12:04

I think his argument is "because they shouldn't have to". I agree with that up to a point. Women shouldn't have to either. Sadly, they do.

(Beyond that point, where it gets to "little pig, little pig, let me come in", one can only say "not by the hair of my chinny chin chin". And let him huff.)

SolidGoldBrass · 09/04/2015 11:55

I suppose I should just point out to any bucketheads taking Johnny Needledick seriously enough to be anxious about his hypothetical dads being 'sent home to be murdered by their abusive wives' that anyone experiencing violence from a family member can call the police for help, and may be able to have the violent person removed from the home and apply for a court order to prevent that person returning to the home.

However, men need to be kept out of women's refuges. It's not about individual men, but the potential danger of allowing men-as-a-class access to places which need to be safe zones for traumatized women is too great.

Given that men-as-a-class have more money than women, why aren't those men concerned about the lack of refuge places for men fundraising for such refuges?

Anniegetyourgun · 09/04/2015 11:44

Ask Erin Pizzey... who was kind enough to wish me well a few weeks ago, with my plans to stand for Parliament.

Oh, I think we can all be big-hearted enough on this thread to say "Good luck with that".

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 09/04/2015 08:31

And I'd like you to cite your sources please, rather than referring us to MB the because you are the one here on the thread making the claims.

ifyourehoppyandyouknowit · 09/04/2015 08:21

If a man wants to be considered primary carer for his children, he should ensure he takes a significant chunk of shared parental leave, drops down to part time hours or even quits his job to provide that care on a daily basis. Because that's most often how women become the default carers of children.

NoPsipsinaChocolateOrange · 09/04/2015 07:41

One of the chaps who donated to the MB party states that he was abused by his father, and his mother failed to protect him therefore it was all her fault.

Baffling to blame the woman for the fathers actions

PuffinsAreFictitious · 09/04/2015 06:02

Good to know, John, that you will be opening your home to male victims of DV in the same way as women did. Only thing is that you'll need to open it to gay men fleeing with their children as well as straight ones, because, you guessed it, men are more likely to be assaulted by their male domestic partners. Except you won't, because you hate gay men.

Your figures are completely false, as you're no doubt well aware.

And, just for the record, for the CSA to actually take that man's driver's licence, he must have been a complete bastard, because men up and down the country are deadbeat fathers like him who get away with owing tens of thousands. In fact, if it's true that he lost his licence, he is the only case of the CSA finally using one of their statutory sanctions on anyone I've ever heard of. Perhaps you could get them to do the same with Janice Atkinson who is also a deadbeat parent who fails to pay her child support.

munchkinmaster · 09/04/2015 05:40

"Pseudo science of attachment theory"

I'll call peter fonagy now and say you've rumbled him.

MoustacheofRonSwanson · 09/04/2015 04:53

I think a big part of the reason refuges don't accept men is to ensure that abusive partners can't pose as battered men and thereby pursue their victim into the place of safety to which the victim has fled. It is to maintain sanctuary.

MontysMum8 · 09/04/2015 04:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JohnAllman · 09/04/2015 03:48

@ SabrinnaOfDystopia

"Men affected by dv are more likely to still be financially independent"

Maybe so. But likelihood arguments like yours are deceptive and cruel to individuals.

Is the tiny minority of fathers, in fear of their lives, able to afford to drive themselves and their children to a safe B&B, so that their kids won't get beaten up by mum tonight either, not quite as tiny as the tiny minority of mums in that happy position of minor prosperity, so that those mums don't need refuge places either, to protect mum and kids from being beaten up again by dad? Probably so, if your "more likely" assertion about gendered economics is true. But such likelihood demographic differentials are not a just reason for publicly-funded refuges to have "no men" notices up in their windows, much as landlords once wrote "No blacks, no Irish" on adverts for rented accommodation.

What if all public funding were removed tomorrow from the sex-discriminatory "women's" refuges, so that any publicly funded refuge had to open its doors to domestic violence refugees of either sex, strictly on a basis that was as gender-blind as the Equality Act required, a fair cocktail of "first come, first served" and "greatest need met first", "greatest objectively-assessed risk to life and limb averted first" and "no fleeing families accommodated able to afford to flee to hotels instead" (the means test criterion), and so on? Every relevant factor considered, in fact, except sex-discriminatory inferences about the likelihood of this or that, informed from ideation about gendered ability to use a credit card to shelter in a B&B instead of in the appropriate place of refuge?

Whose agenda would it sabotage, thus to level the playing field, if market forces were allowed determine accurately how many men, and how many women ended up in unisex refuges, the only refuges allowed if the Equality Act were to be enforced, with their children if necessary?

How much better it would be to enforce the already-enacted illegality of sex-discriminatory provision of refuge places, than to tolerate it, based upon vague, hand-waving arguments like yours, about dads with children whose mum is a bully allegedly being "more likely" to be able to afford to carry themselves and their children into the expensive commercial sector of refuge provision.

"less likely to be the carers of the children"

Principle 6 of the 1959 Declaration on the Rights of the Child, declares that, "The child, for the full and harmonious development of his personality, needs love and understanding. He shall, wherever possible, grow up in the care and under the responsibility of his parents ..."

Parents, plural, please note.

It isn't normal for any child to have only one "carer". That is a fate that should only befall a child, whenever it isn't "possible" for him or her to have both the carers to whom he or she has the right, wherever possible, his mum and his dad.

Men remain able to impregnate even into the years of their lives when they have little life expectancy left. So one is more likely, even without a war like World War I, to find oneself a child whose dad has died. But women are more likely than men to physically abuse their own children so severely that a compassionate society might deem it not "possible" (i.e. tolerable) for them to enjoy their mums remaining their carers.

It is hard to say how many children who are not still entitled to both their parent-carers, because that ideal situation is no longer "possible", are left with mum as their sole carer, or dad. But, most children are entitled to two carers, one male, and the other female, their parents, because that remains "possible" in their cases.

Neither mum nor dad is the "primary" carer of a child for whom it remains possible to retain both carers, I hope, in your opinion, because that clichéd "primary carer" jargon, recipe for parentectomy, opens a whole new can of worms.

Even if one buys into the whole pseudo-science industry of "attachment theory", my argument that likelihood arguments such as yours, applied to who is or are a child's "carer" or carers (whether they be singular or plural) cannot justify sex discrimination.

Even if it isn't (as you argue) "likely" that children will often be made happier, because their individual impoverished dads, themselves by no means "financially independent", were allowed equally to take refuge in refuges provided to refugees of domestic violence and their children, is such a statistical argument as yours (as it would become, if you had cited any statistics), adequate to justify blatant sex discrimination, at the point of admission to a refuge? Must that dad's children be refused refuge from parental violence, merely because it was their male parent, rather than their female parent, who applied for refuge, by knocking on the door, when he and they could take no more of mum's routine child batterings and intimate partner batterings?

If a really poor dad knocks on the door of a refuge with five children, in fear of his life and those of his five children, is it lawful for the refuge to tell him to go home, and let mad mum murder him and his five children if she wants to, because he is a mere dad, and this refuge only caters for mums in danger of being murdered at home, along with their children?

Justify, if you can, the present day ideologically-motivated sex-discrimination, perpetrated by the publicly funded charities, against children with violemt mums, the minor sons and daughters of violent mothers whom peaceable dads have brought, in good faith, to the doorsteps of refuges, only to be refused refuge.

Roughly half of battered children are battered by their mothers, not their fathers. Roughly half of battered intimate partners are men, battered by women. That is how it is, nowadays. To publish this isn't misogyny. It is fact.

JoanHickson · 09/04/2015 02:33

Most people could find ten local people and quite a few £500, to enable them stand at a GE.

This guy will stand, get a few votes he will not be elected into Parliament.

SolidGoldBrass · 09/04/2015 02:25

Bwahahahahahahah John Allman. You have lost. You are a failure. Women all over the world are pointing and laughing at you and your squealy, poorly informed, illogical ranting.
We are also laughing at your imaginary friend (jeeezus, who never existed).

And yes, we are speculating about the inadequacy of your penis. It's probably within the normal size range, but you are desperately worried about it, because you think it's the only thing that matters.

StillLostAtTheStation · 09/04/2015 02:10

I listened to it as welll. On a personal level it's very sad for her but I agree the family courts are not set up as a money spinning exercise. I picked up on her saying something about the CSA taking her father's driving licence away. Possibly she meant DVLA or I misheard her- but one doesn't lose one's driving licence for no reason.

Amongst her father's protests were handcuffing Margaret Hodge at a Law Society event, blocking the Tamar Bridge by camping out on it for 5 days and holding a rooftop protest on the roof of a private house occupied by a judge who had found against him.

Italiangreyhound · 09/04/2015 01:38

I've listened to the Rosy Stanesby clip and it is very sad that she had a very unhappy experience of her family break up. But the idea that social services and the government is breaking up families to generate income from two homes etc is so ludicrous! I am sure children are not always considered in break ups and it may well be solicitors do not always do the best job for those who are breaking up a family. I have not experienced this myself either as a child or an adult so can only imagine the pain involved. But surely better mediation etc is the answer rather than wild conspiracy theories!

Italiangreyhound · 09/04/2015 01:22

Oh dear all very sad stuff.

CultureSucksDownWords · 09/04/2015 01:16

I read some of his twitterings and some of the blog posts.... the hate, the anger, the contempt and the bile about women and gay people that comes across is utterly repulsive, and to be quite honest it is frightening.

I sincerely hope that my son doesn't turn out like him or the other MRA mentioned at the start of this thread. I would consider that I had failed as a parent if that were the case.

SabrinnaOfDystopia · 09/04/2015 01:13

John tweeted that he was "really upset" by this World churches join campaign to oppose violence against women

Yes. Upset by it, he says. Opposing violence is 'upsetting' to him.

Why, John?

MontysMum8 · 09/04/2015 01:08

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.