Transgender kids article in today's Guardian

Do you really want to go about harassing women who don't look feminine enough in your view and ask them to prove to you they are women? Really? I'd feel more uncomfortable to bump into someone in a public toilet who thinks that's OK than I could ever feel bothered by a trans woman going to a toilet designated for the gender she presents as.

I wonder if we have the right to ask people to show their gender recognition certificates! Obviously if you can't tell the difference between people who have and people who don't have them, that gives a carte blanche really for anyone who claims anything. Lovely little mess. Law is only ever as good as its enforcement .

CoteDAzur, if I'm skim reading this correctly www.equalityhumanrights.com/your-rights/equal-rights/transgender/transgender-what-the-law-says If they get a full gender recognition certificate, transgender people are legally considered members of the acquired gender in all ways, except for one important caveat about 'gender specific offences'. I guess that's to allow that transgender, erm, penised people (struggling with vocab here mn, no intent to 'offend') can still rape as that's classed as a gender specific offence. At least we have that.

But you then have as Harvey says the equality act which requires that transgender people are not discrminated against inthe workplace and vocational training, which it distinguishes from education, wrt
"recruitment, transfer, training and promotion, access to work-related benefits, facilities and services, dismissal, and any other detriment."

So I don't think that covers the use of public toilets, just the workplace ones.

The equalities act also covers women of course but there is no statement about what to do in the case of conflict. In UK I guess that would be left to precedent, which essentially boils down to what the judge felt like on the day. I have no legal training whatsoever but I think that's what they call a grey area in the law. Hope that helps, cos I'm still confused.

StillLostAtTheStation thanks for posting that article. I found it quite hard to get past the glib 'everyone agrees that gender is hardwired, including feminists' bit, but the article as a whole was quite balanced and thought provoking.

Mostly it confirmed my previous thoughts that what sort of treatment/ approach children will get is totally dependent on the opinions of the psychiatrists they get referred to, and the strong correlation with homophobia. Some really sad stories too, the whole thing seems to be such a minefield for families and children even putting to one side completely the wider issues.

If that was a reply to me, I can't see in that link any mention of anyone now being considered a woman if they only say they are. I realise that transwomen are now using women's toilets.

Lots on google search

www.theguardian.com/careers/transgender-issues-in-the-workplace

Does UK legislation now say that whoever says they are a woman is a woman?

I just checked, and dictionaries still define "woman" as adult human female.

What would they like to remove, that hasn't happened yet?

I'm struggling to think of anything, that isn't covered by the Equalities Act.

They have access to all women's spaces and services. And the ability to shut down any women's event/space etc, if they are excluded from it

Statistics are skewed by their right to identify as women.

I do not think it does equate to the same thing at all.

If people fully replaced sex categories with gender, it would be really, really bad for women. This hasn't happened. Yet.

I think we should be aware of what has happened, and what some biophobe activists would like to happen, but at the moment, most of what they want to remove from women hasn't been removed.

almond it equates to the same thing though

Because it has been decided that toilets for example, are segregated on gender lines, whereas they were segregated on the biological sex definition of 'female'

And whilst we may be allowed to be a distinct group of female sexed people, we are unable to hold conferences which exclude female gendered people, because that would be discrimitory

No, Harvey, because women as a group are legally defined as a biological sex.

The government has allowed some males who want to change their gender to do so, but as there is no such legal category as 'gender' for the rest of the population, it has allowed people with a GRC to change what is recorded under sex.

The UK government clearly stated that it it was impossible to change actual biological sex. The definition of biological sex has not changed. It is just that some people have been exempted from having to declare their real biological sex. I understand that there are a whole load of issues with that, but it is not the same thing at all as the far more serious situation of biological sex not being recognised and woman being generally understood as a gender. That would be a massive decline in human rights.

apocalypse

almond if a person with a penis and testicles is legally recognised as a woman, then indeed prostate cancer because a woman's issue. It has happened. There was a link on another thread, where an Agenda had been extended to include. I will find the link I i can

I quite agree that FGM is more than a topic of interest but I have read before that it's not the only topic that penised people object to being discussed among vaginaed people without adequate supervision.

apocalypse I agree. But I feel 'topic of interest' is putting it lightly. FGM is a massively emotive and very personal/intimate topic. It is a big problem throughout the world. Women have varying degrees of their genetalia sliced off with no anaesthetic and some have their vaginas sewed up tight. So tight that it rips them to have sex and to give birth. This is done to girls from as young as 5 to puberty. Surely these women should be to discuss their experiences in the absence of men. Certainly in the absence of people who have had elective surgery to mutilate their own genitals

Harvey, that isn't what you said though.

It is not just a case of 'identifying' as a woman and legally being treated like one.

Some men identify as women but haven't told a doctor. They have no legal rights to be treated as a woman.

Some men have seen a doctor and are undergoing supervised treatment. They have some rights under gender recognition law, but this is not the same as being treated legally as a woman.

Some men have a GRC. They can put down that their sex is female legally and be treated that way, but the government recognises they have not really changed their sex, as this is impossible. The core definition of female has not changed to make prostate cancer a female issue and fgm a male one.

RadFem 2013/4 was shut down because it excluded trans-women, from discussions on FGM amongst other things

I find the denial of the right of women to associate with whomever they choose to discuss a topic of interest to those present quite shocking.

Gender recognition certificate is to get birth certificate changed, I believe

RadFem 2013/4 was shut down because it excluded trans-women, from discussions on FGM amongst other things

It is almond. MtF trans people have to be allowed to use the female toilets; otherwise you are denying they are women and that contravenes the Equalities Act. Happens in the last 2 places I have worked. It doesn't matter that they have penises.

One colleague left for a weeks annual leave as a man (worked with him for 8 years) and returned as a woman...using ladies toilets/changing rooms

I don't know anyone who thinks that women who can't give birth are not real women. They are real women because they have predominantly female reproductive systems. The statement "humans have two legs" does not mean a person with one leg is not human.

Widow really? A biological woman who can't conceive isn't thought of as a woman? By whom? Apart from transactivists? The phrase "barren woman" isn't nice but even that does not deny the womanhood.

I don't think many people would take the statement that "only(biological) women can get pregnant " to mean "(biological) women who can't get pregnant aren't real women" unless you wanted to work it up to mean that for your own propaganda.

Harvey, that isn't true. I have read loads of these threads and it simply isn't true in the UK.

almond if a man wears a frock and lives as a women, he is legally recognised as a women. He can access women only spaces; toilets, women's shelters. FGM can no longer be classed as a 'womens issue' and prostate cancer is considered a women's issue.