Transgender kids article in today's Guardian

Holly - re "they they are separate issues entirely, one being that your wish is to have a specific body part removed in order to be happy where as the other is to wish to be a completely different gender in order to be happy"

... except that "to be a completely different gender" means changing one's body in the image of the other gender - i.e. chopping off body parts, whether it is breasts & vulva or penis & testicles.

"many transgender never actually have genitals removed"

Only 14% of of transwomen and 21% of transmen are not interested in having genital surgery. That is, a very large majority (86% of transwomen and 79% of transmen) want the surgery necessary to physically resemble the sex they feel they are.

The reason why only 33% of transpeople have had gender reassignment surgery in the US, for example, is simply that they can't afford to pay for $30,000 for it.

That's not quite what Abortion said, Widow.

I thought she raised some interesting questions, namely:

• Why is transition considered the only solution for these kids?

• Why were there no large numbers of transpeople attempting suicide 20 or 100 years ago? What changed?

And this sentence was particularly insightful:

"By telling these kids that these surgeries actually create some new person of the opposite sex... we encourage the idea that full sex transition IS possible, and in so doing give kids a standard to live up to they cannot POSSIBLY live up to."

I find the idea that it's those who say full acceptance is possible are the ones who are driving trans people to suicide rather than those who are keen to ensure that they'll never be accepted and are simply wrong and mentally ill rather bizarre.

abortionfgm in what way is dead naming - the insistence of using a name which the individual no longer wishes to use not violence? Why should trans people not have the right not having to disclose their trans status always and everywhere, especially when it attracts so much hostility and ridicule?

culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2014/06/20/cisgender-cui-bono/

This has given me things to think about. The whole subject is not one I'd given much thought to. I suppose my view was I didn't and don't see that it particularly concerned me.

I had never heard of "cis" and all the baggage that comes with it. I suspect I'm not in a minority there. I do wonder what the game plan of the more belligerent transactivists is;it doesn't seem an obvious route to gain acceptance.

AbortionFairyGodmother,
As stated previously, gender reassignment should be treated on a case by case basis as should many other issues. Whatever path the individual takes, whether it be to have an operation or not should be decided in response to their individual needs. You cannot put everyone that has any issues whatsoever with themselves, their body etc under one umbrella.

Hollyhoward, to say that analogizing and thinking of whether we'd use the same logic in another circumstance is impossible or wrong essentially means throwing out the entire scientific method. The idea that two similar problems with similar psychological impact should not be evaluated at all similarly is bizarre. Why is transition suddenly THE ONLY SOLUTION for these kids? Twenty years ago, was there a huge rash of transgender suicides? Fifty? A hundred years ago, where are all the suicide notes from people that say "Verily, I am a man, lo these many years, and cannot countenance being treated otherwise"?

Transition CREATED the suicide narrative. Before it was supposedly possible for literally everyone around you (even gynecologists, say some rather delusional MTFs) to never know you were ever your birth sex, the idea that you'd always be your birth sex didn't cause suicidal ideation. It's only now that there's an illusory promise of a perfect opposite-sex body, attainable through the spending of tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds, that people want to kill themselves over it. The availability of the perfect "solution" (a solution only attainable by the richest and luckiest) makes their current state untenable.

By telling these kids that these surgeries actually create some new person of the opposite sex, that "deadnaming" is "violence," et cetera, we encourage the idea that full sex transition IS possible, and in so doing give kids a standard to live up to they cannot POSSIBLY live up to. We tell them that the goal should be never having to say you're trans, full acceptance by every human being alive as the opposite sex, and then wonder why they're dissatisfied.

InAndOfMyself,
Apologies, to clarify, I don't believe one to be more acceptable than the other. I do however think they they are separate issues entirely, one being that your wish is to have a specific body part removed in order to be happy where as the other is to wish to be a completely different gender in order to be happy, many transgender never actually have genitals removed. I feel that these two very different issues, although both completely valid in their own right, are very separate and cannot really be compared.

hollyhoward Not to be thick, but I really don't understand, how is wanting genitals removed different from wanting a leg removed? Why is one acceptable and the other is not?

CoteDazur, I think the exact opposite, I was speaking of how you reference differing mental disorders, when we are not in fact discussing a mental disorder. You vastly misunderstand. As stated previously, treatment should be drawn on a case by case basis, as should BIID...you cannot draw comparison between the two, nor can you draw comparison between any issues that a person has with their body, psyche, beliefs. The topic is about transgender individuals, nothing more. Also, I feel your statement where you compare having a leg removed, to having genitals removed very worrying. It is a very basic, and damaging view to hold
I am very curious to know what you would do if your child wished to be the opposite gender?

a slightly different perspective-
did anyone see Googlebox this week? they watched this documentary (the Louis Theroux one) and I was very interested in the response of the 2 gay guys. They were watching the little boy/girl (Crystal I think) twirling around in a dress and general girlyness. And one of them said that if that option (transgender) had been available to him, when he was that age, he would have chosen it, because he loved all things girly.
They didn't pursue it but I thought it was quite revealing. And I thought maybe it's easier for some parents to have a transgender kid than a gay kid. In the sense that it confirms rather than challenges gender norms.
I'm offering this as a possible theoretical insight not a comment in how people should behave or feel, so please believe I'm not intending to upset anyone.

"drawing comparisons between differing mental disorders is unhelpful"

So you see transsexuality as a mental disorder.

Why would you then encourage transitioning? Should you not advocate psychiatric treatment, as with any other mental disorder?

Your unconventional opinion aside, why do you think a man who thinks he is an amputee on the inside and wants his leg cut off gets therapy but another who thinks he is a woman and wants his penis cut off gets an operation to do just that?

I don't mean to put you on the spot. I am puzzled by the medical establishment's vastly different approach to what seems similar problems, and I'm interested in an answer if anyone can give one.

I wonder if it has to do with most people's acceptance of the concept of a soul, and how it can be born into "the wrong body". To me as a lifelong atheist, a consciousness that has arisen in a given body believing it is "in" the wrong body for it sounds like the very definition of a psychiatric problem.

May I just add that drawing comparisons between differing mental disorders is unhelpful when discussing something which should be treated on a case by case basis. It is a very monochromatic way of looking at the world

CoteDazur,
The fact that the greater part of the medical community disagree with what I have previously stated hold no relevance to my personal opinion. They do not 'routinely' remove genitals either, there are very extensive psychological rests performed with people who wish to be transgender. There are many things stated by medical professionals that I disagree with, and many things that I agree with. As I'm sure you'll know, there is a very serious lack of help provided for people suffering from mental conditions or depression withing our health service, so I think maybe we shouldn't take all advice by meducs to be gospel. The fact that medical opinion differs depending on country surely shows an inconsistency.

Holly - re "if someone truly wanted to have a part if their own body removed, and was 100% positive that they needed this to feel themselves and be happy within their own body, then yes they should have that body part removed."

The medical establishment disagrees with you, as you must know if you have indeed looked into Body Integrity Identity Disorder. As its name suggests, it is treated as a psychiatric disorder and those people's limbs are NOT routinely amputated because they say they need them cut off to feel complete and be happy.

Widow, I think there was mention on this (or the other thread on the same topic) of the rate of suicide among trans people in general, so I assumed the figures about surgery were made in response to that.

Obviously there is going to be different figures for young gender variant children, teens, those who have surgery and those who don't.

When I answered about what I would do if it were my teen, I'm really thinking about the individual not the stats. If you have your own teen sat in front of you (taking into account gender variant children don't usually become trans adults, but the situation is different for trans teens), and they are having therapy but still strongly contemplating suicide because things are so unbearable, what do you do?

And I think you would have to support them with surgery if they wanted it, because even if that eventually leads to suicide, at least that is maybe suicide later not now. And wouldn't anyone want that? A few more years, ten, twenty, in which maybe they become happier and maybe they don't, rather than death now because therapy and support isn't working off that individual?

And I know this all sounds very sad, but feeling suicidal is sad. Being trans is not a mental illness. Being trans isn't even a medical condition requiring even seeing a doctor for some trans people. But being suicidal is a mental health problem, and sometimes that means people have to make hard decisions that may or may not make their life worse in the future just to get through the next year, month, week, day. And that isn't just trans people with mental health problems; that's anyone with mental health problems.

CoteDazur, i have indeed already read in to the subject, without the aid of wikipedia. I agree, in the same manner that if someone truly wanted to have a part if their own body removed, and was 100% positive that they needed this to feel themselves and be happy within their own body, then yes they should have that body part removed.

Holly - You didn't mention amputees. I did. If you read my post again, I think you will see why.

Click on that link and read about people who genuinely believe they need to be amputees, that one of their limbs is too much. They really REALLY want a leg to be amputated.

Would you "encourage them to be the person they wish to be, and feel they are inside"?

If not, why not?

almondcakes there was no comparison made whatsoever (and at any rate, surgical reassignment is an option not many choose) however I get the impression that medical transition (including hormones/puberty blockers) is deemed as equally bad by those who oppose any treatment other than treating being trans as mental illness.

So all we got is the claim that transition allegedly increases risk of suicide, when there's no reference to the suicide risk of those who don't transition. So is it the transitioning that increases the risk or just the status of being trans?

Unless the latter half of the post was not intended for me?

CoteDazur, I use the term 'nurture' as a means of caring for, and helping to grow. Don't get me wrong, I don't believe you should take what your child says at face value and just run with it before confirming what is best for them. I do believe though that if a child desires to be transgender, then yes they should be 'encouraged' to be the person they wish to be, and feel they are inside. Would you discourage a transgender child? Also, I cant think if where I mentioned anything about amputees...

holly - re "a need to be transgender should be nurtured"

Why?

More specifically, why exactly would you treat someone and hope he gets better when he says he can't stand one of his legs and wants it amputated because he would be happier as an amputee rather than cut off his leg, but encourage someone who says he can't stand his penis & breasts because he would be happier as a woman and cut them off?

I would assume that the risk of suicide or serious psychological outcome was really high for conversion therapy, and I thought it was to some extent illegal?

I think the poster earlier who was talking about suicide after surgery was meaning compared to the suicide rate for trans people who don't have surgery but are still trans.