Transgender kids article in today's Guardian

GoGiYerHeedAWobble: Are you seriously starting HRT at age 10?

My understanding is that it's usually recommended to wait until 12 at the earliest.

The majority of boys who are gender dysphoric in childhood grow out of it ("desist") by about age 10 or 11 (in the end, most identify as gay men in the long term), so it's generally not considered advisable to start taking medical steps towards transition at such a young age.

StillLostAtTheStation I am a seventies child so not massively younger than you (in the scheme of things) I went to a girls school that absolutely pushed the academic and I expected to succeed. But I was also very interested in the world and it didn't take much to see that all the power belonged to men.

Plus my mother was pretty traditional and totally favoured all the men in her life, presenting a view that women were really there to support men's success. I don't think she was particularly unusual back then, or even now for that matter.

More fundamentally I had extremely painful periods and I was sexually assaulted when I was about 12 or so. So no I didn't think that being a girl was all that fantastic. Pretending to be male was one of my defenses in living an independent life and I thought it worked pretty well.

When I was a child, I was a tomboy, liked boys clothes, toys, and wanted to be a boy for a while but happy in my own skin and do not want to change my gender. I still wished I had gone into flight training and become a Pilot but that's another story. I think one of the kids on the show was unsure, he liked being a girl and a boy, and liked boys and girls things, when older wanted to remain a boy when questioned. In that situation I would hold off the threapy and medication, and just let the kids be happy how he is, and see what he feels when older.

Thanks Flora a very interesting article ... In many ways!

Here's the source for there being more FTM than MTF in Iran.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4301205/

Stillostatthestation, a lot of MtFs have sexual motivations for transitioning. transgenderreality.com/2015/03/27/special-edition-sissies-fetishists-and-kinksters/

Thanks stilllost but it was the difference in rates of MtF / FtM that I was interested in. It makes perfect sense within an Iranian cultural context for that to be the case - IF cultural norms are accepted as a cause of some transitions.

StillLost there are MtF who believe that life as a woman is much easier. They are, in general, wrong, although for them personally their lives may have been easier if they had been born women but the general female experience is certainly not easier than the male.

From the little I've read since Flora's raised this having to deal with the odd "transexclusionary radical feminist" is the least of the worries a transitioned trans person in Iran will have to deal with.

And in Iran, yes, clearly women's choices are highly constrained - but I highly doubt many men (who haven't thought much about feminism) would see that as the case in the UK or US today.

Transexuality is big in Iran because homosexuality is punishable by death! If you're attracted to the same sex, it's celibacy, sex change or death for you.

m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1568604

Transexuals in Iran - Huffington so probably accurate - confirms Flora's post.

Why would anyone in Iran be attracted to the idea of becoming female, with all the restrictions that go with that?

I would ask that question of many of you on here and not just in relation to Iraq. If it's so terrible being a woman, men being the oppressors with all the power why would anyone anywhere want to be mtf ?

That is an interesting statistic Flora (do you have a source for it?) as it reinforces the idea that gender stereotyping might be a key factor in some situations. Why would anyone in Iran be attracted to the idea of becoming female, with all the restrictions that go with that? IF there was a strictly biological basis for all gender reassignment then wouldn't we expect the proportions to be equally MtF and FtM and expect them to be stable across national borders?

Interestingly Iran, which has the highest rate of transsexualism in the world, has a slightly higher rate of FTM than MTF transsexuals

I think the reason there are FAR fewer ftm transexuals is because it is easier to avoid the feminine stuff and do more traditionally masculine stuff than the other way round

Which always takes me back to the basic patriarchal misogyny that women live within: the despising of men doing anything "feminine" and the way in which women doing "masculine" stuff is seen as good, liberating, progressive etc etc ad infinitum.

Homophobia seems to me to emerge in part from misogyny. Stereotypically, the cultural script goes something like: If you're a "real" man, your sexuality is focussed on dominating women. If you want to shag men/be shagged by them, then in some way you must be a woman, not a man.

I think the reason there are FAR fewer ftm transexuals is because it is easier to avoid the feminine stuff and do more traditionally masculine stuff than the other way round.
I really don't understand why any woman would feel that being surgically mutilated to resemble a man would enhance her life as it seems to have nothing to do with what she can and can't do with her life and more to do with stereotyped ideas of what being a man or being a woman is all about and body dysmorphia.
The concept of only being able to be who you are by having mutilating surgery or hormones to look different is seriously fucked up.

2Rebecca I'm not sure what avoiding violence has to do with the decision to go ftm. Your position on mtf seems to be it's just social conditioning that makes it unacceptable for mtf to adopt the brainless trappings of femininty but if they want to do so why not go ahead without the need for surgery or hormone treatment.

It's very easy for a woman to not dress or look feminine and to adopt whatever might be the "trappings of masculinity". But clearly for many ftm that is not enough although by your analysis it should be.

2Rebecca I did not say that. You said "the trappings of femininty" are brainless. Many, many women like the "trappings of femininty " It's insulting and patronising to dismiss their choices (which of no doubt won't be real choices in this sort of mind set)

gibbering I don't understand your comment at all- what is it mtf don't understand? The difficulties in the process of transition from mtf or simply being a woman?

My statement was in the context of a girl wanting to be a boy. I don't think many women want to be men to avoid male violence. When it comes to nightclubs young men are more at risk from male violence than young women and I worry about my student son walking home late at night. The type of violence is different though and men are far less likely to end up dead in a field after a liaison with someone of the opposite sex and more likely to be stabbed or beaten by a gang

Sorry, got confused about which thread I was on! That story I mentioned is in the pub. I have to say I've never understood why mtf transition is popular, I can only assume they really don't understand what it can be like. It horrifies me when other women deny it.

Unfeminist not unfinished

I don't understand why you think finding the pink sparkly superficial version of femininity that is sold to young girls is being unfinished. Your last paragraph makes no sense to me

"You say yourself you don't think as a woman you are prevented from doing anything a man can; I agree. "

I don't. Especially for the younger women.

What about the ability to go out for a night without getting groped and sexually harassed? What about the ability to leave relationships without the risk of having revenge porn posted on the internet? Go back a page or two and lookat that story about the schoolgirl whose conversation asking for mercy was recorded and is being used against her, and tell me young women can do everything young men can again?

Not to derail, but some people really do seem to have their eyes wide shut. I'm glad you've been sheltered but can't you see the people who haven't?

"You say "the trappings of femininity are brainless" and yet feminists wonder why so many young women don't want to be called feminists. "

I.e. "Let's blame women who notice the patriarchy for the effects of the patriarchy."