When I talk about DV against women to some men.....

It can be just as hard with women too. :(

The only man I talk to about this stuff anymore is my son. My husband friends and relatives who are male are pretty much all on the same page re DV and women etc. so we chat/discuss/lament stuff but I don't explain anything. I do have conversations with my 18 year old (as I have always done) as he is still forming opinions.

I could no longer be bothered explaining feminism to thick men who are dying to feel hard done by - but I applaud those of you who still have it in you to do so.

The women's refuge places when compared to men's can be a tricky one to counter - until you look at the facts, that is.

Women's refuge started as a feminist movement (often by lone individuals) helping battered wives - who despite all ridiculous claims to contrary, are vastly more numerous than battered husbands (although we all admit dv does happen to men).

Women are a) more likely to be carers to children, b) more likely to not have an income due to being carers to children and c) more likely to be victim to domestic violence- and it's usually more serious - leading to serious injury, hospitalisation or even death.

So, yes. There are more refuge places for women and their children.

I have to say I think very little of men who try to turn the tables around.
I think immediately that they are violent and abusive themselves.

From my own experience, my exH tried to point out that I had been physically aggressive with him. Yes, he had scratch marks around his wrists. Yes, defence scratches from trying to release the grip from his closed fists against the sides of my face. No punches. "Just" a slap.
Yet, he was the only one with visible marks.

On the programme, there is more to abuse than isolation. There are patterns of abuse, but it's not all the same. What they all do is thrive on secrecy and control. It is possible to give the impression to the abused that they actually have a choice, that they are are responsible for what happens. And that is the impression that can pass on to people on the outside. No need to isolate them then.

And,sorry,by rights that should be on AF's thread,but it just spewed out on here.Sorry.

What a shocking shocking programme.

I think the one thing that did surprise me in it is that she was still going out and didn't lose touch with her friends.I thought a typical pattern was isolation from friends (and family).It shocked me how so many knew but were powerless to influence the situation and the outcome.

I think it highlighted something that people who have never had experience of dv don't seem to realise.They can't understand why she stays,or returns,because they think she has a choice in the matter.

Totally, Fireirons, and I wish that general "respect" information was given to high school (even before) students, as well as specific information on abuse. Hell, I'm still seeing grown women on Relationships boards who are reluctant to contact WA because "he's not actually punching me". And that makes me so sad. When I think of the vast amounts of things young women need to learn, I just - words fail me.

I'm sorry to hear that, Fire

Quite, AF, I think what I was trying to say is that when da menz complain about the shame of male abuse, what they may not realise they're complaining about is that we're all being stigmatised by the same assholes, i.e. that we have a common front to fight.

it's certainly not feminists who attribute shame to male victims of DV

WARNING: ad absurdum follows:

But, surely Da Menz should be ashamed of being abused by a girlie (by any means: physical, emotional, financial, etc) because if they were beating their wommon into submission this wouldn't be happening?!?

Or (assuming they're such girlie-gayboys that they eschew physical violence), their clearly superior male intellect failed them and they didn't detect and avoid the [female] abuser in the first place?

If they fail on one or both these counts, don't they deserve to be abused? Because they're not being REAL MEN...

What I'm trying to say is, shame about male abuse is hand-in-hand with other [stupid] societal shames: that a woman asks for rape, that children of abused mums are better off with the family not being disgraced by divorce, etc. If a man is subjected to shame for experiencing what can happen to anybody, it pretty much proves the same point about the rape/beating/etc culture that we're all having to deal with and can't get rid of fast enough.

Sorry, if I had a "big jazz-hands finish" to this, I can't remember it.

Incidentally (and I won't rant about this) - Figures for violent attacks on men by women are going up. This appears to be due to violent men identifying as women. Since it is illegal to record that data, the analysis has to be done by interview. So it will take a long time to amass a body of evidence.

If I'm remembering my figures right, men under 35 are at greater risk of violence and murder than women under 35.

But the overwhelming majority of all the violence is perpetrated by men. This shows us a problem.

Also, the women's attackers are much more likely to be men they love, rather than strangers or acquaintances. Being half-murdered is arguably more traumatic when you're in a relationship with your attacker. It is inarguably more traumatic when you share a home, have children there, and cannot easily get him away from you long-term. Since it's more usually women who compromise their careers in relationships, they don't even have resources to effect an escape.

Of course men being abused by women do fear stigma, and I doubt you would find many feminists disagreeing with that.

Feminism is a women's movement. I'm afraid, these days, I laugh in the face of "what about" men who cry 'Where are our refuges, eh?' I suggest they should be asking other men that question: do they think Refuge dropped, fully-formed, from the sky?

I don't lack sympathy for men, far from it. I lack sympathy with men who can't stand women having more of anything, even suffering, and who try to make women think only of them.

I hope that was ranty enough

yes, on an individual level men can be as affected as women

but feminism isn't really an individual pursuit, is it ?

should read "just as affected as* female victims"

Thank you

sorry, by 'those people' i mean the ones that shout you down and get aggressive about it.

imho, everyone should have the right to speak about their experiences, without encroaching on either genders safe space to do so.

its possible to relate to each other without turning it into a competition or some kind of bizarre one-upmanship.

i've previously been able to pull up facts for male victims of dv in a few seconds. It's a serious problem and they can be just as affected by female victims.

Surely the best way to progress as both feminists and taking a stand against dv is to treat it with equal measure and recognition and respect all victims the same.

(have experience with dv also completed a course on it with other survivors and not all of the abusers in that group were male!)

tbw, it was on BBC3