When I talk about DV against women to some men.....

no it's fine i'm happy to discuss it because good chances are I am wrong, I want to connect with feminism i'm just struggling.

No I don't believe it's the social norm from my experience. I think it's a problem that needs addressing, for example some of the police notices they have put out in the past which were heavily criticised and pulled. But in cases like Ched Evans I think it was a minority of both men and women that were acting in an abhorrent way about it. It was 100% men and women in that case, and I never spoke to a single person I knew personally who thought what he did was ok or he should return to his career, that includes my DP who said if a rapist turned up at his site to work he'd be chased out of there.

When I had to report a historic sexual abuse last year, I received great support from the vast majority of services, and male and female friends/family. All except for my aunt, who due to religious involvement was not supportive at all. "it wasn't that bad, it wasn't rape, there's no need to involve police" even though the nspcc were the ones who convinced me to report it.

Then recently in the news a feminist comedian produces that guide for men on how not to rape, and suggested people share it with every man they know! to me that's unbelievable to imply that every man we know needs a guide on how not to rape!

Do you see where my problem is? I'm not in any way arguing that there are gender inequalities need to be addressed, or that sexual violence is a largely gendered problem! I just feel incredibly frustrated by some of the whitewashing that's going on.

I know that victim blaming happens but i just don't agree that that is a socetal norm, i think the vast majority of men and women are sympathetic to victims and do not seek to oppress or harm women, the minority that do obviously need to be tackled but it was the point of it being a societal norm that i disagree with.

I don't think anyone should censor themselves i just find the tone of opinions expressed by feminists online push me and others away from associating with feminism as a group. I've stated numerous times that gender inequality is an issue, but the fundamental thing i disagree with is when it is painted as men, *men do x", large numbers of men are abusers etc or don't want women to be equal that's what i disagree with.

If you don't think feminists should censor themselves why are you saying pointing out gendered violence should be merely said as bad people do bad things? How can you understand that class is an issue for people but not sex?

"on the whole i think society is very sympathetic to female victims"

Ihatelego I think a read of the Everyday Victim Blaming website would do you some good.

Well, I'm no analyst either, but I really like "society is currently set up in such a way that women are systematically disadvantaged. So when bad people do bad things, this often plays out in a gendered way."

Lego, I don't think feminists would be happy to just leave it at "bad people do bad things". I think the narrative would need to be more along the lines of "society is currently set up in such a way that women are systematically disadvantaged. So when bad people do bad things, this often plays out in a gendered way."

This could include a male victim of dv feeling emasculated and open to mockery. This is a problem of a sexist society, and something feminists would want to see change.

(I should say this is based on my own probably pretty feeble understanding of feminism - I've not been here long, nor read a great deal. But I'm sure others will say, if they think my understanding is way off.)

just to clarify again.. i have zero interest or notions about women censoring themselves to please men or anything similar.. zero.

I mostly just ignore feminists I disagree with. They are not the problem I face in the world. It serves the patriarchy well for women to get tangled up in infighting. It's nothing new, but it's nothing new to have women policing other women. It's sort of an intellectual body policing, oh your feminist views are just a bit fat, they take up too much space, perhaps you could have slimmer feminist views & maybe dress them up a bit prettier to be more attractive to men.

But why are so many of the bad people who do bad things men?

The narrative in society is already bad people do bad things not that men disproportionately to their percentage of the population do the bad things.

When this simple, verifiable, quantifiable fact is pointed out it is not received well by most of the population. Instead there's angry denial like the OP encounteted, or feminists are mean (even when it's men being hideous to male victims of dv).

At least you know who Helena Kennedy is now

I'm not looking for an argument, i just put my opinion out there and have been responding to people's questions/comments

I can't tell what it is you're arguing tbh, lego.

sabrinna no idea who that is if you were asking me!

I accept the consequences of course, pay inequality, women working double/triple shift, lack of representative female mps etc. all of those should 100% be challenged and criticised.

I'm not totally sure that's the social norm though, i think there's a lot of awareness and support for female victims of dv, yes there should be more and police could be better trained to deal with it but on the whole i think society is very sympathetic to female victims. Maybe that's my issue, i just think conversations should be respectful to all and sometimes acknowledge that at the root of it, bad people do bad things, not just men.

Are you 100% sure, Lego, that you're not dismissing feminist arguments because they don't fit your idea of women being peacable, placatory, and generally nice? what on earth gave you that idea?!!! i have no such ideas about women and never have i've always been outspoken myself and applauded outspoken, ballsy women!! you are totally misunderstanding me, and to clarify, not all feminists act this way but it is a section and a section that make themselves heard i don't think it's doing any good.

She didn't hit him. That's the point. Yet she was being labelled abusive.
yes quite rightly, i didn't say on that thread "she is abusive" but that behaviour was abusive! only earlier on on this thread someone cried their exasperation at women who don't think they're abused "because he didn't punch me" using threatening, intimidating behaviour to scare someone is abusive behaviour.

woman was asking about if she was abusive because she had scared her dh in an argument by waving her arms in a threatening way so he thought she was going to hit him

She didn't hit him. That's the point. Yet she was being labelled abusive.

When men hit, punch and kick women, they do them damage. They hospitalise them. They kill them at a rate of 2 per week, each week.

When men hit women it is about control, about ownership and power over women - those men think that their place in society is above the women they live with. And that's patriarchy.

There is no way it is a level playing field. Not on any level.

I was just imagining Rosa Parks sparking a revolution by simpering nicely at the white men and saying she'd really rather not move if it wasn't too inconvenient for everyone or Martin Luther King gently telling America that discrimination isn't awfully nice really, and perhaps people might like to consider whether they're being completely fair. Or Spartacus's mates mumbling "I dunno who he is"

Lego: i'd just like to see a more considerate and reasonable approach to issues

Sabrinna: Women are expected to be the peacemakers.

Are you 100% sure, Lego, that you're not dismissing feminist arguments because they don't fit your idea of women being peacable, placatory, and generally nice?

Some feminists are angry to a degree that strikes me as unreasonable - so are some men, some black people, some muslims, some old people, and some of everyone basically.

By far the vast majority of feminists aren't unreasonable. It's fairly normal to feel angry when considering injustice and, in such cases, it's wise to express that anger honestly & assertively. A lot of people dislike women being honest & assertive, especially when they have a good point. But you don't get your injustices addressed by apologetically whispering in a corner, do you?

I mean, no offence to feminist bloggers/columnists - but she's not not that.

She's a barrister and human rights lawyer, a member of the House of Lords, who writes from her experience of the legal system.

Do you know who Baroness Helena Kennedy is?

Baroness Helena Kennedy

the last thread i saw that was similar, a woman was asking about if she was abusive because she had scared her dh in an argument by waving her arms in a threatening way so he thought she was going to hit him, but because he had said something innapropriate to dc people were saying he was abusive, and even went as far as to say the anger management therapy he'd had had just been an exercise in justifying violence!

It's from various feminist sources though, every time i've dipped into the feminism forums here i've struggled to associate with the conversation, and when it crops up in the news it's not normally positive.. idk really i'm happy to have my perceptions changed, i want feminism to work and be successful i'd just like to see a more considerate and reasonable approach to issues than i see demonstrated currently.

Helena Kennedy wrote about how women perpetrators of violence are judged far more harshly than men, both by the legal system and by wider society. Men are expected to be violent, women are not. Women are expected to be the peacemakers.

It's very interesting, and very true, imo. Threads on MN have horrified me sometimes - the woman holding a newborn baby in bed, arguing with her dh. Her dh went to take the baby from her, she kicked him away. How do you think that went for her? It was shameful.

The woman whose dh's job was to take the recycling bin out - in a temper he threw the bin and all the recycling went everywhere. He refuse to clear it up, so she cleared it up, and whilst doing so threw a drinks can at him. He wasn't hurt. She was vilified on that thread, for being 'violent'.

Funnily enough, you never get men asking 'AIBU to headbut, punch and kick my dw?' Or: 'She annoyed me, so I slammed her against the wall, and broke her ribs. WIBU?'

Or, WIBU to strangle the mother of my child to death after a text argument because i'd been in the pub all day? Legal system: "well, YWNBcompletelyU. Seven years imprisonment. The Gaby Miron Buchacra case