Going 'no makeup'

"Pretty is not the rent I pay on my space in the world. This whole sorry charade of Beauty... Is a trap. It's a game you can't win. It's like approaching the speed of light: the more you do the worse you feel."

bodin, will you marry me?

My rule is: If I am applying make up (or nail polish, or doing any of the grooming rituals) for fun, adornment, self-expression, creativity – for the joy of it, then I am doing it for me and that is fine. If I'm applying make up or shaving my legs as a chore – not because I want to but because I feel I am unacceptable in my natural state, then I am a victim of the patriarchy.

More detailed blog rant here

I feel uncomfortable being done up so to speak, and prefer the no make up make up look, last time I made a big effort was my brothers wedding a few years ago and almost everyone commented on my appearance, with a few saying I'd be married by now if I put that effort in regularly, I felt awkward and didn't like the compliments (I don't mean that to be as vain as it sounds) but couldn't pin point why, I actually felt guilty for being mad inside about it.

Seems to me they were not compliments. My daughter and I were talking about this a few days ago- 'when is a compliment not a compliment'. It can be a backhand, delivered like a compliment but wrapped in an insulting coating, the key being you are not simply complimented on how-you-look/what-you-did because its not delivered in isolation for its own sake or even in comparison to others, its framed in context off your failures/lower-than-should-be standards. Worse case it can be very mean spirited stuff- 'You look great today' but with a subtext of 'you look as ugly as piss every other day'.

Re "woman's things" I was quoting vitamints

Does it ever occur to some of you that constantly going on about woman's things being degraded is a self-fulfilling prophecy?

Not really, Still. Description is not prescription. If you can't name the problem, you can't even begin to address it. There are also plenty of feminists who think that, outside of biological requirements, there should be no such thing as a woman's thing or a man's thing. There should just be things and free choice for everyone. Until such an enlightened society exists, if it ever can, feminists will be describing their realities and hopefully finding ways to negotiate or improve them.

It would only be a self-fulfilling prophecy, if 99% of the population weren't completely unaware of this type of feminist discussion...

Yes it's an option which men don't have.

As "for part of the femininity package etc, etc" you know outside of catwalks/strip clubs most women and men 's obligation in going about every day life is basically wear clothes and in certain work situations wear smart clothes.

Does it ever occur to some of you that constantly going on about woman's things being degraded is a self-fulfilling prophecy?

I get that mathanxiety, I was sort of commenting on the commenting on it, IYSWIM. It's OK to tell women how you think they look, even if it's negative, but it doesn't seem to happen to men with anything like the same frequency. Women's looks are more scrutinised, therefore some women (may) feel obliged to put their faces on to be deemed socially acceptable.

Goats - you're reminding me of the thing people often say about school uniforms and workplace clothing rules where the girls/women get to wear trousers or skirts, that it's "sexist against boys/men" who don't get the choice (rather than it being reflective of sexism and the way women's things are downgraded).

I hope I'm making sense

Nothing Ever. Unless I am being silly.

If I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying that women have an option to make themselves look better that men don't have, Still?

Perhaps it's an option.
More likely that it's more of an obligation: part of the femininity package that women are supposed to perform.
And the fact that men forego this supposed option to look better because of the ridicule of performing a feminine act kind of indicates to me that it is the latter.

I literally don't own any make up. I sometimes borrow some of my dd mascara.

Yes but why would the men risk ridicule, as you point out? Because it's a "woman" thing (degrading, etc).

And given that it's a "woman" thing do you really think the individual choice to wear make-up is really so free?

Teeste, many women look 'tired' because they are tired.

Women go home from work and do their second shift and frequently if they have babies or small children they don't even get a decent night's sleep after that, so they do a third shift too.

Many men otoh, relax when they are at home, do chores if asked, but are not the ones looking at the calendar, planning the meals and the shopping list, wrangling the children to do homework or pack their lunches or dealing with school notices, or in general doing all the mental work that running a home and organising a family takes.

Surely as feminists you should be able to think for yourself, if you like wearing make up and it makes you feel good, great. I f you don;t and it makes you feel good also great.

People are individuals, surely that is the whole point of feminism?

Oh no doubt, still not convinced it's not just a teeny bit patronising that women who wear make up can't think for themselves.

Men aren't doing because they risk ridicule. Women have the option of doing something about, in my case, the fact I've lost most of my eye lashes. A bit like does a tree falling in a wood make no noise if there is no one to hear it- am I being oppresssed by the patriarchy by putting on lashes even when I know won't be leaving the house?

As for having to wear make up I've not worked anywhere where it would be expected.

i wear make up , maybe three times a year, maximum. I'm 58 and so would qualify for those " shock" photos on t'net.

About 5 years ago I decided it was time I grew up, had my make up done at body shop, bought stuff and wore it very day. When my daughter commented on the fact that I ws wearing make up and my husband sighed in relied=f as he thought that I had ablack eye and didn't like to mention it.

Gave up after that, life is so much easier.

That's a pretty standard objection in most feminist debates, Still, and, similarly, 2 pretty stock responses to that objection are:

• Women's "choices" do not happen in a vacuum; and
• Are the men doing it? No? Then it's probably a feminist issue.

I wear makeup to work every day, knowing full well that there's a certain amount of social coercion going on, but at least I'm aware of and can mull over that when I want to.

I do wonder about the insistence that it's "societal coercion " Is it easier to justify it to oneself that it's what I have to do than admit that actually I do look better with a bit of mascara?

There is societal coercion preventing men in day to day humdrum routines wearing make up but I'm not convinced it works the other way.

I dislike that there is a societal pressure on women to look "nice", "groomed", "better" etc. when there is not such a pressure on men. If I look at men who are a similar age to me in a similar job, they just look clean and tidy. They don't get judged if they look blotchy or spotty or whatever.

The only time I wear make up is when I feel like shite. I literally put on a mask. Saying that, I don't even bother with that most of the time now that I don't go out to work. None of the women in my family have been big make up wearers, and if I do say so myself, we age well. I still get asked for ID buying lottery tickets and I'm closer to 40 than 30!

Lolly, you are hilarious

I am one of the 'grotesque' ones. If people are repulsed by my natural, normal, human appearance then they can look in the other direction.

And what you said about partners is ridiculous. In my 17 years with OH, sadly it is me who has come closer to having affairs, not him. He seems to cope with my un-made-up appearance and frizzy, unkempt hair. What can I say? I obviously just have some sort of indescribable charisma.

I don't really bother with make up.... I only own a mascara which I wear occasionally. I have a couple of times in the past experimented with my daughters make up and we have put a 'full face' on and it felt absolutely awful! I'm glad I'm not chained to the rigmarole of putting it on every morning. I remember a couple of years ago whilst walking out the school gates 2 children being hurried in by their mum because they were late, they looked all scruffy with unbrushed hair and she had a full face of make up perfectly applied! All my shoes are flat too, I don't own any heels. And I don't wear any jewellery. Or perfume. I'm free!!!!!

I wear makeup - tinted moisturiser with sun protection, eyeliner and mascara, blusher. If I forget to put blusher on, people ask if I am feeling ok (I'm quite pale). I use concealer if I have a spot, because I don't like to look at them. A good friend of mine wears none, but she has perfect skin and big eyes and looks lovely without it. I do not look lovely without it! I look tired and blotchy and drained. When I was pregnant my skin was lovely and glowing so I didn't wear concealer or a tinted base. Wearing makeup makes me feel better about myself, I look better with it on. I don't think wearing/not wearing is a feminist statement - I can still be a feminist and enjoy looking nice.

Same here, squizita, my patience can wear awfy thin when I've got my period, my boobs are like giant footballs of pain and my back hurts, and then a kindly, well-meaning pal tells me how much better life would be if I didn't feel I 'had to' wear a bra!