Gym thinks only men can be Drs

Sorry, that came out significantly ruder than I meant it.

It's got fuck all to do with trans issues, let alone sex positive ones.

Or rather, it is precisely the same issue for transwomen, transmen, and everyone else who, understandably, would prefer to get to use their own title rather than whatever a misogynistic system throw at them. So it is, for goodness' sake, and issue we should be able to agree on.

Good point Basil. There are a million and one trans-inclusive, sex industry positive etc feminist sites so why come here and complain about being disagreed with if that's your viewpoint?

I find it instructive people who are regularly here and then blurt out how we're all horrible and "this is why everyone else on Mumsnet hates you too, so there".

Because it gives a little insight into the spirit in which they come here.

I'm not sure discussing why kim made reference to FWR is that helpful if she's finally gone.

We probably would have had the same argument anywhere, yonic, but I think equally, I'd have had the same argument with anyone else, too. If we'd been in chat, this would have been diluted by an awful lot of other people saying 'dunno what the fuss is about' or 'I hate people who use the title Dr' or 'don't you have real worries'. And I would probably have responded with equal lack of nicey-nicey politeness to them (as I did to dadwas on here, and to his credit, he doesn't seem to have taken against a blunt reply at all).

I haven't made any personal attacks or been deleted, and kim hasn't been deleted either, so honestly, it could be a whole lot more full of aggro and I'm glad it's not.

Took = takes, mixed up my tenses.

Hmm, but I think of Kim as an FWR regular who sometimes took MN breaks and I thought she saw herself that way too.

So I don't understand the use of the card.

I think Kim is pulling the FWR card because we hate it and it lends support to the claim we're all mean bullies for disagreeing with Kim.

Kim and Jeanne, you don't get on on here and you rarely bring out the best in each other.

Kim, I don't think that's specific to the FWR board though - it's just a fact about the two of you. If this thread was in chat, you'd've both posted similarly. So quite why you are pulling the "that's why FWR is known for hostility" card, I don't know. But I hate that card.

Can whoever is forcing Kim to post please stop now? It's cruel, she repeated over and over that everyone is being mean to her. SO please stop forcing her to post.

Cool, you disengage then.

You're making the mistake of trying to apply logic to the situation.

I don't think it's that simple.

And how are they doubly discriminated against? If they pass, they get treated like lesbians, just like all lesbians. If they don't they get treated as Trans, and not lesbians.

Maria - you're forgetting that a large number of MTFs are also lesbian which means that they're doubly discriminated against!

And yet lesbians get told all the time that M2Fs experience much more discrimination than they do.

lesbians of course would be stuck at the bottom as usual, as the very last thing anyone would assume is that it's two mothers with doctorates

Wasn't there a post last year about a school who thought a pupil had two dads because both parents used "Dr" as their title? As someone said at the time, that's a wonderful indication of how far gay rights have come and a depressing indication of how far women's rights have not come.

People are not being asked to accept this, women are. Frankly I find it laughable you think this would be resolved in a few days, Kim. Even with the best will in the world to fix this (which is a huge assumption), there will be a cost and a lead time involved. How lovely it must be to think that companies will jump to fixing problems based on the request of one woman. What are all these women complaining about?

You have no idea it would be 'a few days'. That is, once again, minimizing the issue with your 'kim knows best' approach.

It has obviously escaped your notice that the system was designed to treat 'dr' as a default male title: so men are never going to have to accept this particular situation, are they?

You are trying to imply that women are just making a 'fuss'.

Do you realize this is actually quite a serious issue? It's not just one individual, 'fussy' woman wanting to be called by her proper title. It's about having basic respect for people's identities and achievements. I am surprised you cannot relate to how it might feel to be told you are not allowed to use the title you prefer, simply because of your gender.

And, for quite a lot of woman, this isn't something that happens once or twice - it happens all the bloody time.

I wouldn't accept "change your title to Mrs / Miss and wait until we never get around to fixing this". If the woman concerned hadn't gone to the press, i can't imagine a business going to the expense of changing their database on the complaint of one woman, particularly when she now has the workaround of using the wrong title and that gets her into the changing room.

This is just more of the sort of crap women are expected to put up with so as not to be seen as the wrong type of feminist. Coming up with some spurious piffle about why women shouldn't be angry about this feeds the problem.

Kicking up a fuss - verb, when cis women get all hysterical about wanting to be treated with the same respect as men.

It's hard to define, buffy.

In some contexts, it means 'making a rational, reasonable and firm complaint, and accepting no discrimination, as part of a fair and equal quest to make the world a better place'.

In others, it means 'a silly strop about insignificant things, which are simultaneously near-impossible to solve, and would no doubt be sorted out very soon anyway'.

I'll leave you to imagine what those 'contexts' might be ...