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Original poster

wtf are work thinking?

86 replies

LadyRainicorn · 10/03/2015 08:11

I work for a financial services firm. It's usually run by a group of old white men but the current CEO elect (or whatever the title for the incoming leader the UK leadership board is) is a woman.

They produce a lot of reports. Coinciding with international woman's day, they did a report on women in business globally.

At the end of the report they made 12 recommendations on how to get more women into business. All well and good. Except 3 were for women. They were basically, act like men. Why? After a report saying that changing the old structures would be beneficial you just want people to mold themselves to perputuate it?!

And the final recommendation was to 'challenge discrimination in your workplace'.

Yes of course. Silly me. All these men discriminating against me because I forgot to ask them not to!

No fucking recognition of the work women put in to get any where in businessin the first place then. Or in some parts of the world, educated.

OP posts:
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MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 11/03/2015 21:18

Two people I know were both arranging compromise agreements for maternity related discrimination while their employer was launching an actual award and being feted in the media for supporting women in the workplace. It was worse because the discrimination was systemic and institutional but it just happened that these two knew enough about employment law to take advantage of the situation to their benefit, instead of just quitting like most of the others.

That was fun.

EBearhug · 11/03/2015 21:09

My company has won awards in the USA for being women-friendly. In many ways, they deserve it. But it does depend massively on the department, and there are departments which appear to have missed out on the culture they're trying to inculcate - which (unsurprisingly) are the departments with the worst diversity etc. The techier departments appear to be some of the worst, which I suspect is partly because they need people with particular technical skills, which are valued far more than any soft skills to do with communication and so on.

My department is one of the rubbish ones.

Original poster
LadyRainicorn · 11/03/2015 12:39

Maybe they've already engaged you? Smile The average profile of partners is scary though. Middle aged to old. White. Male. Most of the guys running our regional department have the same first name even (it's a little creepy).

I wish I could find something on proportion of directors in the public sector, by sector. It should be fairly easy to compile as all members of the board and senior management need to disclosed, governance structures are disclosed etc. etc. Anecdotally I know a fair few directors of finance (given the nayure of my work that's my entry into these organisations) and also senior accountants that are female.

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MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 11/03/2015 12:26

The shit companies who want to be better keep folks like me in business so keep plugging away Grin

Original poster
LadyRainicorn · 11/03/2015 09:24

Now I have spit some feathers here and at work on this I feel slightly ashamed.

The report is shallow.

The recommendations for women are ill thought out and patronising.

But my firm isn't as bad as the industry standard. The us branch was in the top 50 for women friendly companies. They have revamped flexible working policies, overhauling parental to make it parents instead of mothers, there's a big emphasis on looking at why you are in the office if you are not actually meeting anyone - and indeed, looking at different ways of meetings and collaborating on projects across offices.

I mentioned I'd critiqued the report - this was on a platform where the slt had presented it and asked what we thought. I think the intention was to get better conditions for women and flexible workers in our department so after that I did go back and give suggestions for improvements in how we work. Which people read and commented on (fuck knows what'll actually happen...)

I've been offered flexible working to cope with shit life events at the mo as well, which I can see not happening at other firms.

They are in no way perfect but they are making an half assed effort.

OP posts:
EBearhug · 11/03/2015 08:56

traditional office hierarchy presenteeism power structure

It's remarkable how many of our recent redundancies were home workers; the ones I know of, at least. I don't know if statistical evidence would back it up, but it's the impression I get.

AKnickerfulOfMenace · 10/03/2015 23:44
talkingofmichaelangelo · 10/03/2015 21:25

There is a massive blind spot about how badly women can be punished for being ambitious, demanding or confident. Men who behave confidently and are rewarded for it can dish this advice out to women, complacently, without realising how high risk it can be for women.

Original poster
LadyRainicorn · 10/03/2015 20:54

Because challenging discrimination in the workplace can and does get you sacked? (As I mentioned earlier I brought this up at work, with named examples, I can't be fucked to do this on a chat thread now)

Because of an odd feeling that saying to the oppressed group that the solution is to ask to stop being oppressed is just not quite right.

My comment on knowing your worth was coming from the whole imposter syndrome, only appying for things when you know you can prove you're better than anyone etc. We should stop this shit. We are already good enough, we don't need to flog ourselves into the ground to prove things to people who aren't listening anyway. So be secure that we are worthwhile, our contributions have meaning and get on making the world spin. Maybe add another about networking/collaboration with other women working same way you are to achieve things outside traditional office hierarchy presenteeism power structure.

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StillLostAtTheStation · 10/03/2015 19:56

Why not recommended 'have faith in your own worth'? Instead of piling on more work women have to do to be better?

The first statement can apply to any one. Your second statement doesn't make much sense , particularly as you haven't said what all the recommendations were.

I'm not sure why you are so angry at the suggestion of pointing out discrimination. Isn't that the whole point of the concepts of everyday sexism/ institutionalised racism? It's the people affected who notice things which impact on them where there's no deliberate attempt to be sexist or racist but it's not been thought through.

Original poster
LadyRainicorn · 10/03/2015 19:42

Yy Moving.

If those recommendations for women had been left off I don't think I would be as bothered by the report.

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MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 10/03/2015 19:18

I think if you're going to give advice to women it should be

a) specific to women
b) within their current power to achieve

Original poster
LadyRainicorn · 10/03/2015 19:05

It's bog standard career development advice applicable to anyone wanting to get on in any bloody industry.

why not recommended 'have faith in your own worth'? Instead of piling on more work women have to do to be better?

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StillLostAtTheStation · 10/03/2015 18:49

There was something along the lines of 'step out of comfort zone and push for more challenging work'

That is perfectly sound advice for any one wanting to get on in private sector industries.

Markets and opportunities change; if anyone can't adapt and take advantage of opportunities, or identity potential opportunities they have no grounds for complaining if they are passed over for promotion in competition with someone who does.

Original poster
LadyRainicorn · 10/03/2015 18:13

Yop, are you skim reading? I said I worked for a financial services firm. I also said that it talked about getting women into business so yes, corporate?

I said the report was a news item on bloomberg (allegedly it was also on bbc worldwide).

Your disdain for the corporate world is clear and while I can sympathise to some extent with your antipathy do not assume that this is a problem affecting just say, the financial services world.

This is something that effects every sector, something, for all its silly flaws, this report points out.

It was also myself that mentioned the public sector. Things are a bit better in the public sector but don't be fooled into thinking this means 'fine'. It's all a relative grade of shit - for example, ~53% directors of social care (a very senior position, on the board etc) in english councils are women. Amazing? - no, it's shit cos 80-90% of the people in the grades below them are women.

The problem is endemic, it is not a 'city boy' and 'spiv' problem.

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MovingOnUpMovingOnOut · 10/03/2015 17:57

I'm not sure Yops has done anything wrong. He seems to be talking sense Confused

Change the corporate culture

That is entirely the solution in a nutshell. Stop rewarding people who behave badly, stop rewarding people just because they are visibly in the office and start rewarding people for WHAT they do, not WHEN and WHERE they do it.

If we had cultures where we expected everybody to work flexibly, everybody expected to take a few years out in the middle of their career and everybody treated others with respect and valued their abilities we'd all be better off.

So much of our working culture is historically rooted the way work evolved with the industrial revolution and it needs bringing into the 21st century where technology and social and economic drivers are so very different.

cailindana · 10/03/2015 17:57

You said the OP should post the recommendations as 'there might be son good stuff in there.' I was trying to get at what those 'good things' are. I doubt it related much to the advice you gave.

Yops · 10/03/2015 17:53

I was referring to corporate success as that was what prompted the OP - she was talking about an appointment referenced on Bloomberg, so I assume it's a corporation. I know it isn't the be-all and end-all, but it was the starting point of the thread.

cailindana · 10/03/2015 17:44

I was wondering why you were asking the OP to post the recommendations in the report - you seemed to think they would be helpful for us women to read about. I doubt they were much like your advice.
BTW there is plenty of evidence that even when women behave like the stereotype you've referred to they still don't get on. Also success doesn't just mean corporate success.

Yops · 10/03/2015 17:39

Well, it was based in what actually goes on amongst high-achieving men in corporations. They do all those things. And yet our society deems them a success. So, if you want to get on in the current environment. it's what you have to do. You asked 'what do women have to do to get ahead'. There is the answer. It might not be very appealing.

The alternative is to change corporate culture. But that isn't what you asked me, and I didn't want to reply to a question I had not been asked.

BuffyEpistemiwhatsit · 10/03/2015 17:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

cailindana · 10/03/2015 17:21

Great advice Yops.

Yops · 10/03/2015 17:18

Be more aggressive. Lie. Shaft people around you. Overestimate your abilities. Work longer hours. Don't see your family so much. Die earlier as a result.

cailindana · 10/03/2015 17:11

So you believe there are things women need to do in order to get ahead? Do you have an example?

Yops · 10/03/2015 17:05

I don't know. Are we differentiating between 'do they' and 'should it really be necessary in the 21st century'? Because it's probably yes, and no, respectively.

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