I can't get my head around the phrase "Transwomen are women".

And how exactly will you police that? Will post-op trans women have to produce a certificate?

I have read this thread with total incomprehension.

So, in your view a transwoman not yet in a position to afford surgery, but who has made the lifestyle transition, should continue to use male facilities?

She identifies as a woman, but should use men's facilities because she is a threat to women's safety, and her safety is less important because she is fewer in number than women-born-women?

All the suggestions about unisex toilets are fine. Still doesn't tackle the problem though. Male violence. In fact it allows us to ignore it. Get round it. Put it to one side. After all it's easier to blame those awkward women for not budging over.

Women have legitimate reasons for not wanting people with penises in bathrooms and changing rooms.

Gowether, I actually think we have a solution, don't we?

People who have been to a doctor and are going through the process of attempting to get a GRC are given access to some single sex spaces but not others.

The problems that have arisen in other countries have happened because they are allowing people to use spaces simply based on a personal declaration.

I'm with Sandor on this one. The safety of the many has to trump the safety of the few.

Who is in most need of safe space? Women.

almondcakes That's exactly my point: there's isn't a solution that doesn't infringe on someone unless we change the whole structure of public facilities. So a solution is required. I'm not trying to force a solution - I'm saying one is required and that 'not my problem guvnor' isn't a helpful attitude, no matter how sympathetic we might all be to that. So, I'm asking the question - at this moment in time, and with an eye on current infrastructure - who is most in need of safe space?

Again, I fail to see why it poses any problem for transwomen to use women's toilets.

But I'd be quite happy to use unisex toilets as well. Women have to queue so long for toilets anyway - another ridiculous example of gender inequality.

Gowether, what are you proposing women who feel they can only use single sex facilities do?

There isn't any temporary solution that is going to be inclusive of everyone.

The only long term solution that will include everyone is to end communal facilities and create spaces with privacy that can be used by anyone of any sex or gender.

Your principles are noted. But that still leaves the trans-community stood outside the door asking what they should do.

I don't suggest anything. I'm telling you the line, beyond which I am not comfortable. It's not my job or responsibility to come up with the answer to the problem.

Herein lies the rub. Women suspect that the vitriol related to trans issues stems from a view that it's a woman's job to solve issues of inclusion and social cohesion.

Here's the thing. It's not my job to make everyone feel loved and included. I don't actually care if some people feel excluded from womanhood.

Gowether, I don't think trans people want trans only facilities (I mean practical ones, not things like support groups). I think some trans people want segregated facilities based on gender identity and others want unisex facilities.

Sorry, that ^^ was to WhatAreSafflowers

"With respect, I don't think that it's my responsibility to solve this and provide safe haven. Why should it be?"

So what do you suggest?

almondcakes I fear we have a misunderstanding; I didn't say that. I was responding to a previous comment that said that we should have trans-spaces instead of women born women budging up. I agreed with that comment in theory, but wanted to point out the reality of the current situation.

It's all very well saying that we should make trans-safe spaces, but that doesn't answer the question of what happens before those spaces are created. Where is a trans-woman going to feel safest? In the male facilities or the female ones?

With respect, I don't think that it's my responsibility to solve this and provide safe haven. Why should it be?

Mary, do you ever go to London? The Waterloo Bridge is built exclusively by women. Just one example.

I am pretty sure that every civilization up until now was built by men while women were provided for and protected and for almost all of that time

What????? Have you read/seen nothing about who does the majority of (unpaid yet essential) work in most places in the world? A developed world 21st century view of "hard work (man stylee)" may make the people doing it feel good but on an effort or importance basis it doesn't trump the drudge work women do throughout the world without which society as we know it would grind to a rapid halt.

This is a also continuum from the past, not a new trend. I see no evidence of women being "provided for" on an historical scale. Unless you mean "earning money" which conveniently women have been prevented from doing a lot of the time in a lot of places over the course of human history.

"Provided for" is sitting on your arse eating peeled grapes. It seems to me that it's much more likely to be a bloke eating the grapes if I look at history.

Mary, you are lauding men for the biological function of physical strength, but disparaging women for the biological function of childbirth?

Really disengaging now.

Gowether, I think it is misleading to say that there is any great move to create those spaces. No law has been created to put unisex facilities in place as the standard in new buildings.

I find some of what Mary says problematic. But there's a valid point being made within that. Trans women are a group more likely to suffer violence than just about anyone else. It's all very well saying that we should make trans-safe spaces, but that doesn't answer the question of what happens before those spaces are created. Where is a trans-woman going to feel safest? In the male facilities or the female ones?

If we want to talk about privilege who has more - women or trans women?

"mary if women didn't give birth to children and keep then alive through constant self-sacrifice, there would be no more humans on the planet. Head on over to the Mn threads about childbirth horror stories if you want to see stories of first world women's "discomfort". Or head on over to the red pillers on reddit if you want ideological allies. "

WOW a whole natural biological function we were born with and used in all those 250,000 years i cannot wait to see what we can achieve next!!!!

Imagine how bad it would still be if men had not invented and innovated ways to make childbirth far less painful and fatal.....(oh wait that would be “benevolent sexism” by gender feminists standards right?)......damn those tricky misogynists.

"So who had the needs for most of human existence when it was a lot harder to get by that carrying a hod of bricks? First world women know nothing of discomfort and have their every need met and met by men still. "

Between 10 and 30% of women died of childbed fever in the Middle Ages. Many more died giving birth. Women have done their bit through history dying for humanity, but somehow that's never set against the men dying in war and physical labour. Could it be because history views the acts of men as more significant?

Anyway, Mary, you've reached the same point you did the other night, attacking people engaging with you politely. So I am another who won't be engaging again. I wish you well.