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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I can't get my head around the phrase "Transwomen are women".

316 replies

nikkinack · 09/03/2015 16:43

Sorry for another thread on the topic, but I was looking at my local candidates and the only female candidate is for the Green party, and she has retweeted that phrase (with the addition "Transmen are men) a couple of times today.

It seems like doublethink to me, every time I try to unpick the statement I get all messed up in the process.

So, if transwomen are women, why call them transwomen? Surely just by defining them as transwomen you are saying they are different to women? Transwomen can't insist on women using the label cis and then lay claim to the standalone word 'woman'.

So transwomen are women, ciswomen are women. The word woman applies to people of either category, but they are still separate categories within the single word, which we can't describe. We are not the same, but to state 'Transwomen are women' is to insist that we are.

I don't know how anyone who makes this statement can square all of this. It hurts my head just trying to work out what they mean.

OP posts:
TheBlackRider · 12/03/2015 08:11

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TheBlackRider · 12/03/2015 08:09

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TheBlackRider · 12/03/2015 08:08

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PuffinsAreFictitious · 12/03/2015 08:04

Because he lied, Sandor.

SandorClegane · 12/03/2015 08:03

Why did mnhq ban you before mary?

PuffinsAreFictitious · 12/03/2015 08:02

SoMuch. The poster named Mary isn't worth your time or effort. They will be banned again for the troll they are. No doubt another Mary26butthurt will be along tomorrow to cite dodgy studies and add to their insults toward women. It might take a while, because of the party last night, but it will happen.

mary25plus · 12/03/2015 08:00

'She' is a pbp. I've reported.

Ban me again for posting my opinion and il not return but if you think that creating a echo chamber that is free from dissenting opinion, where only insults and harsh opinions against men are permitted then you are in a downward spiral.

Nothing i have said would be considered harsh if it had been against men in fact my points are tame compared to some i have seen on here but as they do not fit with the ideology of gender feminism they are considered ban-able offenses apparently.

And you wonder why over 70% of women do not identify with being feminists any more.

SoMuchForSubtlety · 12/03/2015 07:58

I don't think violence is being portrayed as a crime mostly perpetrated against women. I think violence against women is being correctly highlighted as mostly perpetrated by men. That's two entirely different points.

mary25plus · 12/03/2015 07:54

I cannot take seriously anyone who describes women who have a fear of male violence as "blubbering imbeciles". Fear of male violence is well-founded and evidence-based. That kind of language shows quite a lot of contempt for women.

Then why is it that women who are the least likely to suffer from physical violence are the most vocal about it happening?

I am against all violence towards anybody regardless of gender and have contempt for those who resort to it be they male or female, but given the fact that women are by far the least likely to suffer from a violent attack being also the most vocal and fearful of it is not logical. Portraying violence as a crime primarily against women has clearly terrified and made women so paranoid about it that it is the entire focus of western society rather than focusing on violence itself without a bias towards one gender being the victim and one the perpetrator (see domestic violence against men for example).

My contempt is also towards fear mongers who peddle their wares for political and social gain while disregarding the unwarranted level of fear it creates in the very women they claim to be acting on behalf of.

mary25plus · 12/03/2015 07:42

Women do the majority of farm work across the world. Growing food generates wealth.

Skipping from first world to third world countries is not a good methodology.

mary25plus · 12/03/2015 07:40

Zhou et al. (1995)

It found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region known for sex and anxiety responses, MTF transsexuals have a female-normal size while FTM transsexuals have a male-normal size. While the transsexuals studied had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including non-transsexual male and female controls who, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal.

www.nature.com/nature/journal/v378/n6552/abs/378068a0.html

Kruijver et al. (2000)

looked at the number of neurons in BSTc instead of volumes. They found the same results as Zhou et al. (1995), but with even more dramatic differences. One MTF subject who had never gone on hormones was also included, and who matched up with the female neuron counts nonetheless.

press.endocrine.org/doi/abs/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564

In 2008, a new region with properties similar to that of BSTc in regards to transsexualism was found by Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab: the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3), part of the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus. The same method of controlling for hormone usage was used as in Zhou et al. (1995) and Kruijver et al. (2000). The differences were even more pronounced than with BSTc; control males averaged 1.9 times the volume and 2.3 times the neurons as control females, yet once again, regardless of hormone exposure, MTF transsexuals lay within the female range and the FTM transsexual within the male range.

brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/12/3132

Luders et al. (2009),

24 MTF transsexuals not-yet treated with cross-sex hormones were studied via MRI. There was a significantly larger volume of gray matter in the right putamen compared to men. As with many earlier studies, they concluded that transsexualism is associated with a distinct cerebral pattern. Although it did show that regional gray matter concentrations were more similar to men than women.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2754583/

Rametti et al. (2010)

An additional feature was studied in a group of FTM transsexuals who had not yet received cross-sex hormones: fractional anisotropy values for white matter in the medial and posterior parts of the right superior longitudinal fasciculus (SLF), the forceps minor, and the corticospinal tract. They discovered that, "Compared to control females, FtM showed higher FA values in posterior part of the right SLF, the forceps minor and corticospinal tract. Compared to control males, FtM showed only lower FA values in the corticospinal tract."

www.journalofpsychiatricresearch.com/article/S0022-3956%2810%2900158-5/abstract

Ramachandran (2008)

They found that while nearly two thirds of non-transsexual males who have a penis surgically removed experience the sensation of a phantom penis, only one third of MTF transsexuals do so after sex reassignment surgery. This study, however, overlooks the differences between an amputation, where the nerves connecting the penis and the brain are severed, and male-to-female gender reassignment surgery, where some of the penis and scrotum may be reused to create a vaginal canal, labia and a clitoris. In this case, some of the nerves connecting the new genitalia to the brain remain largely intact. Also, two-thirds of FTM transsexuals reported the sensation of a phantom penis from childhood onwards, complete with phantom erections and other phenomena.

www.ingentaconnect.com/content/imp/jcs/2008/00000015/00000001/art00001?token=003a1640522e8f7e2a46762c6b665d7a663b2553236e457a673f582f47

Berglund et al. (2008),

Tested the response of gynephilic MTF transsexuals to two sex pheromones: the progestin-like 4,16-androstadien-3-one (AND) and the estrogen-like 1,3,5(10),16-tetraen-3-ol (EST). Despite the difference in sexuality, the MTFs' hypothalamic networks activated in response to AND, like the androphilic female control groups. Both groups experienced amygdala activation in response to EST. Male control groups (gynephilic) experienced hypothalamic activation in response to EST. However, the MTF subjects also experienced limited hypothalamic activation to EST as well.

The researchers' conclusion was, that in terms of pheromone activation, MTF's occupy an intermediate position with predominantly female features.

cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/18/8/1900

Schneider, Pickel, and Stalla (2006)

Prenatal androgen exposure, the lack thereof, or poor sensitivity to prenatal androgens are commonly cited mechanisms to explain the above discoveries. Schneider, Pickel, and Stalla (2006) found a correlation between digit ratio (a generally accepted marker for prenatal androgen exposure) and male to female transsexualism. MTF transsexuals were found to have a higher digit ratio than control males, but one that was comparable to control females.

Hare et al.

The androgen receptor (AR), also known as NR3C4, is activated by the binding of testosterone or dihydrotestosterone, where it plays a critical role in the forming of primary and secondary male sex characteristics. They found that male-to-female transsexuals were found to have longer repetitions of the gene, which reduced its effectiveness at binding testosterone.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3402034/

A variant genotype for a gene called CYP17, which acts on the sex hormones pregnenolone and progesterone, has been found to be linked to female-to-male transsexualism but not MTF transsexualism. Most notably, the FTM subjects not only had the variant genotype more frequently, but had an allele distribution equivalent to male controls, unlike the female controls. The paper concluded that the loss of a female-specific CYP17 T -34C allele distribution pattern is associated with FtM transsexualism.

www.fertstert.org/article/S0015-0282%2807%2901228-9/abstract

AKnickerfulOfMenace · 12/03/2015 07:07

Previously banned poster.

ArcheryAnnie · 12/03/2015 07:04

(What's a pbp?)

TheBlackRider · 12/03/2015 07:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

ArcheryAnnie · 12/03/2015 06:58

I cannot take seriously anyone who describes women who have a fear of male violence as "blubbering imbeciles". Fear of male violence is well-founded and evidence-based. That kind of language shows quite a lot of contempt for women.

TheBlackRider · 12/03/2015 06:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

mary25plus · 12/03/2015 06:15

What????? Have you read/seen nothing about who does the majority of (unpaid yet essential) work in most places in the world?

like cooking cleaning around the house and raising a child?

It generates no wealth yet women who do it in a household typically have access to all that households finances and decide where it is spent. Very few of the married men i work with get anything but a certain amount of money for coffee during the week and some for when they go out for a beer and its all assigned by their wives. And their wives have what they want for their social lives and while there is no set amount like a wage the household income is still hers to distribute.

These are not oppressed women getting exploited these are the managers of the household and its budget and control who gets what, why and how much and it is rare a conversation on site about a group social event that costs money goes anywhere until the men have "asked the Mrs".

The hand that rocks the cradle and controls the money does not lack for power nor is oppressed in a relationship.

There is a video of "do and do not's for married couples from 1913" online il link and while it was written for the middle class who obviously had some wealth it shows that this image of supposed oppressed women being treated as "chattel" is nonsense.

The guy who posted it is no fan of gender feminists but the book is real and factual and written by a real scrapper of a British lady of the day who was clearly a no nonsense tough as nails type.

My disparaging comment did her a disservice as it did many others just like her but so does the attitude you have towards history and the past so do yourself a real favor and hear the words of this woman in her book because while quaint and old fashioned there is a hell of a lot to like and admire about her and those like her.

She covers everything including getting paid etc.

like me or not this is a worthwhile vid:

mary25plus · 12/03/2015 05:51

Mary, do you ever go to London? The Waterloo Bridge is built exclusively by women. Just one example.

From 1940 well after the modern era was here.

FloraFox · 12/03/2015 04:43

Would you want to be marked out as different?

Thanks for confirming my point kim

vesuvia · 12/03/2015 02:31

gowether wrote - "Trans women are a group more likely to suffer violence than just about anyone else."

The violence inflicted on transwomen by men is unacceptable and ways need to be found to get men to stop inflicting this violence.

Each year, world-wide, about 500,000 people are murdered. Of these, about 250 are trans people (about 0.05% of all murders).

Between January 2008 and September 2014, the murders of 1,612 trans people across the world were recorded by trans support groups. 1,273 murders (79% of all trans murders) occurred in Latin America, with Brazil accounting for half of that figure.

1 trans person is murdered in the UK per year.

sources include: www.transrespect-transphobia.org/uploads/downloads/2014/TDOR2014/TMM-TDOR14-map-all.pdf

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About 600 non-trans people are murdered in the UK per year.

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The Gender Identity Research and Education Society (GIRES) estimated in 2014 that about 1% of the UK population is "gender nonconforming to some degree" (transgender). GIRES estimate that there is an equal split in the numbers of transwomen and transmen. Only about 1 in 50 of these trans people, which is about 0.02% of the UK population, have "undergone transition" (post-op transsexual) - there are about 13,000 post-op transsexuals in the UK.

sources include: www.gires.org.uk/assets/Workplace/Monitoring.pdf

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The total population of the UK in 2014 was about 64.4 million. The GIRES estimate that 1% of the UK population are trans suggests that there were about 644,000 trans people in the UK in 2014.

annual risk of murder for a trans person in the UK = 1 in 644,000
annual risk of murder for a non-trans person in the UK = 1 in 106,260*

  • 1 in 106,260 = 600 in (64.4 - 0.644) million = 600 in 63.756 million

These figures appear to suggest that the annual risk of murder for trans people could be 6 times lower than the annual risk of murder for non-trans people in the UK.

StillLostAtTheStation · 12/03/2015 00:53

I do not understand the female penis concept. I can understand body dysmorphia. I can understand someone like Jackie Mcauliffe who looked like a young woman, who always looked like a girl, was bullied because she looked like a girl and who very much wanted to get rid of her penis.

I cannot understand how it is possible to say , as some transactivists do "I'm a woman, I love my penis and I'm going to use it sexually"

SandorClegane · 12/03/2015 00:51

It almost reads like you assume all transwomen/transgender people want/intend to have surgery which would indicate that you might want to do a bit of further reading on the subject gowether

SandorClegane · 12/03/2015 00:36

Not all transwomen want to/intend to have surgery. They say they have 'female penises'.

almondcakes · 12/03/2015 00:26

Gowether, I am describing the situation that is in place now. It isn't hypothetical.

almondcakes · 12/03/2015 00:24

Gowether, sorry, don't know what you mean by 'afford.' GRC is usually a result of treatment on the NHS.