I can't get my head around the phrase "Transwomen are women".

For what it's worth, I think there's a lot of transphobia on this thread

marfisa what here would you say has been transphobic?

Just a sample of why it isn't symbolic. There would be more links here, but I can't stomach all the "hot porn" results that come back when you google rape/assault in bathrooms.

If women are not allowed to challenge people who appear male in a women's bathroom, then any non-trans male can easily gain access, and will, seeing as they already go to great lengths to try.

TRIGGER WARNING - all reports of various arrests of men trying or successfully gaining access for sinister reasons, many dressing as women in order to do so. Some of the details could be triggering.

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And no, the physical safety issue is not just symbolic. Transwomen themselves are also afraid of being amongst males in a public bathroom for good reasons.

there is a pretty big difference between men who identify themselves as men, and men who have felt so unhappy with the gender assigned to them at birth that they have chosen to transition.

The trouble is, while I am happy to concede there is a massive difference in what is going on inside the individual's head, there is no obvious/visible distinction to the outside world at all. A non-op transwoman (the majority are non-op) is quite literally not going to look any different from a non-trans male who dons a skirt/makeup in order to gain access for sinister reasons.

Non-trans men already do this regularly btw, but they usually get reported and/or arrested. If all they have to do is say they identify as a woman, women's bathrooms are no longer a protected space, from anybody or for anybody.

If I were their Dad I would probably send them into the men's as I could go with them into there. Carefully steering them away from the urinal part...

Regarding women's toilets being considered more suitable to use for children.

I have used women's toilets for my small boys for several reasons. One, I can go in there to help them out if they have any trouble with doing up their trousers, wiping their bottom or washing their hands.

Two, they are unlikely to encounter anyone's genitals due to doors on cubicles and no urinals.

Three, women's toilets smell better.

The main thing is though, I can go in there with them. I don't particularly think they will be at risk of assault if they go into a men's toilet. But sending them into any environment I myself am unfamiliar with seems a little counterintuitive to me.

For what it's worth, I think there's a lot of transphobia on this thread, but I don't agree with any of mary's posts either. She (if she is a she) has such a negative view of women that she doesn't even sound like a feminist. It's not worth engaging with arguments that are completely bonkers.

I still find the fear of transwomen sad though. As a woman and a feminist, I can say that I would not feel threatened in the slightest by sharing a toilet with a transwoman. Even a transwoman with a penis. Do people REALLY think that transwomen are likely to run round raping other women in toilets? Really? Surely the issue is a symbolic one rather than an issue of women's literal safety. And it's a huge leap of logic to say, 'Once we've let the transwomen in, we've let ALL the owners of penises in!' Like it or not, there is a pretty big difference between men who identify themselves as men, and men who have felt so unhappy with the gender assigned to them at birth that they have chosen to transition.

What I see on this thread is an 'othering' of transwomen - they are scary, they might even have penises, and above all they are not like 'us'.

If someone says she's a woman, I'm going to take her word for it. I'm not interested in doing a detailed analysis of her genitalia or her brain make-up in order to see whether she passes the True Woman test. I have better things to do with my time, like fighting the patriarchy. If she wants to join me in that, I'll grab her hand.

Also, with all due respect to gowether, I also don't think that hierarchies of oppression (arguing about which group is more oppressed) are useful at all. Recognising the vulnerability of transwomen does not mean minimising the ways in which women as a sex have been and continue to be victimised by patriarchy.

But surely the idea of 'being born in the wrong body' is illogical anyway, when you are talking to the 'my penis is female' section of transactivists? If it was the wrong body, they your penis is wrong?

Really good point beyond - and surely the population of disabled people is much bigger than the trans population - and yet disabled people are excluded from mainstream debate

I'll be honest, something bothers me about being "othered" if having to use a trans* toilet...

Why does no one give half a shit how "othered" i feel as a apparently sexless disabled person? Half the time i dont even get a mirror

That is a good point, KiD, that the space may become more unsafe for all.

I think the way the wind is blowing is illustrated by the response to the Planet Fitness incident:

Person named "Carlotta" - who from the evidence of his own social media self-identifies as male, hence me using "he" - uses gym's women's changing rooms when visiting as a guest. He goes into the women's changing rooms to hang up a coat and a bag - ie he isn't changing, so there is no question here of him needing a safe space that isn't the men's changing rooms while presenting as female. A woman challenges his presence (he presents as stereotypically male, and is by all accounts a big guy) and she is thrown out for raising it, as Planet Fitness is a "non-judgemental" venue. Cue a thousand tweets praising Planet Fitness for their "trans-friendly" policies and for standing up for a "trans woman". The fact that "Carlotta" self-identifies as male does not seem to affect this praise for Planet Fitness (despite the fact that all these social justice warriors are thus misgendering him, something they usually view as a violent crime), nor does the fact that (again, from the evidence of his own social media) "Carlotta" sends unsolicited sexual messages to women online - ie there is docimented evidence of him not having respect for women's sexual boundaries.

Meanwhile, those evil, evil TERFs mention that Planet Fitness has thrown a pregnant woman out for accidentally showing her belly, and a hijabi woman out for wearing a headscarf. (I hadn't heard of either of these things until someone linked me to the evidence, so thank you, whoever it was.) The response from social justice media? ~tumbleweeds~

The message to men here is: do what you like. There is no safe space for women. Women are always, always in the wrong.

One of the things that seems glaringly obvious to me is that the whole reason women's bathrooms are seen as safer is because they 'guard' against male presence (males by far being the major perpetrators of violence).

Women and vulnerable small children seek out that relative safety. I can completely understand why transwomen would want to benefit from it too.

However, the space is only safe because it is free from male presence and policed that way. If transwomen must be allowed to enter without challenge, then in reality any male at all can enter without challenge.

So any predatory NON-TRANS man with sinister or sexual motives now has a free pass. Many non-trans men have already been arrested for going to extreme lengths to plant cameras in women's bathrooms, or physically spy on the occupants, or yes... rape them.

If all of those non-trans predatory men now have the ability to put on some lipstick and walk right into the bathroom with everyone too fearful to challenge him (because he might identify as a woman), than the woman's bathroom is no longer a safe space at all... for anybody.

My issue (and I am not even reading Marys posts so not responding there) is not about toilets
I wouldn't give a toss who is in the next locked cubicle
I would have issues with competitive sports though where a person born male could likely have a stronger body and gain an unfair advantage
I would be horrified that anyone with a penis were allowed in a womens refuge or gain entry to women only colleges
And school changing rooms, it is not good enough to don a skirt and expect to share a changing room with teen girls
I also would be worried about claiming crime rates are rising amongst women if it is transwomen committing the crime

I have discussed these issues amongst my friends/colleagues. I would describe us as typically proper working class professional women
I do not identify as a feminist but do believe in equality
All the women I spoke to are horrified and think it is a world gone mad situation
Some just do not believe it

To answer the OP: the thing that unsettles me most about the glib 'transwomen ARE women' is it's so often used as an 'unanswerable' putdown for genuine concerns:

"I'm uneasy about transwomen in sensitive places like rape crisis centres" -"Transwomen ARE women. Why wouldn't they be there?"

"Is it quite fair that the list of highest-achieving women in industry and sport is dominated at the top by transwomen, doesn't this mean it looks as if women get a fairer deal in life/opportunities than they actually do?"
"Transwomen ARE women??!! you should be glad they're doing so well for women's achievements."

"Violence carried out by transwomen is counted as 'women's violence', doesn't this mean the figures get skewed so it looks as if women carry out more violence than they actually do?"
"Transwomen ARE women, why aren't you getting this?"

It gets even more ludicrous at times with people trying tactfully not to offend - specifying 'women born women' - only to get - "Transwomen WERE born women, they have always been women!"

The other thing which irritates me is the trotting out, often by people who haven't even thought about the issue, of 'but he/she was born in the wrong body' - this has been accepted now as a phrase that makes complete sense and actually means something, as if it's an accepted medical/biological reality. Another unanswerable put-down really. But it's a nonsense. We're all born into OUR body - or rather, our body is born. I suppose it got so slickly adopted because to say more truthfully 'he/she feels their mind doesn't match their physical body' might prompt people to actually think about the issues instead of blind acceptance. But you see it everywhere, like fact.

As others have said, I wish gendered expectations could be entirely done away with so everyone could live exactly as they wished. This it seems to me would make the life of people who feel they don't fit so very much easier. But in general the whole concept of trans seems to be coming at it from the wrong angle and INSISTING we are all pushed into a gender box.

There are brutal trolls on both sides of any argument, Sandor.

If I was on the same side of this debate as misogynist trolls I might be questioning my assumptions somewhat.

To anyone who feels that the views expressed here at transphobic, please note that mary (a misogynist troll, it would seem) is very keen on the idea of innate gender identity. Does this not reveal something about the 'woman trapped in a man's body' narrative? It fits very nicely with good old fashioned misogyny.

2nd thought don't put that on here!

By the way, blackrider, how did you know they were a pbp? Might be useful to have more eyes open?

And perhaps, Still (and others) we can begin to see the danger of these people. Mumsnet feminist boards being covered by this kind of anti-women trash in droves. Blogs covering the topic on the women's side being covered in abusive comments. Glosswitch, when her blog raised the issue, being doxxed and having her kids threatened. Lib dem and green members of parliament calling any woman who dares dissent names. University campuses refusing platforms to dissenting women speakers.

I really don't like the looks of this.

Ah. Thanks Puffins.

It is statistically meaningless to extrapolate the annual risk of Trans people being murdered, if one Trans person has being murdered.