I can't get my head around the phrase "Transwomen are women".

Messy, the vast majority of the population of the world have no real privilege and are treated harshly. The group 'women' is not a dumping ground for all harshly treated, disadvantaged people.

messy - agree and I would say that's down to being trans and not to being female. It's horribly harsh but different.

It is also possible though that they can and still have faked being male (because they've had to, to avoid abuse) and thus still had the privileges accorded with being male in this society.

I don't get why trans is such a threat and a problem

It's really because what they're asking of women is too much. They're asking women to abandon the term "woman" and accept their definition at a time when women are only just gaining the space to define woman and womanhood, defined and controlled by men as long as we know of. They don't want us to be able to have penis free spaces when we know that penised people are a threat to women. They don't want us to talk about female biology and its significance to the position of women as exploited labourers all over the world. They want womanhood to be located in gendered displays of femininity rather than in biological reality.

Is that enough, or do you think none of these things should matter to women?

"In short I don't want people who have lived with all the privileges of being men admitted into all female areas because they are now identifying as being female."

But surely if you're a biological male who identifies as female you have enjoyed very few privileges. The macho world is extremely harsh on men and boys who are "effeminate" and don't follow the norm.

Just reading an article on the BBC about a feminist site that had a ddos attack on International Women's Day.

Found this quote.

""We're more than a website or events - we're a movement. We are providing a safe space to connect, learn and grow with other female-identified people," reads the introduction to the site."

female identified people. Do you mean women? Is it soo hard for a feminist site to be able to say women?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-31795501

techgirl - that is a perfect situation you describe which just doesn't exist. Very few, really really few gender reassign at 18. 80% plus never reassign.

Weren't you raised as a woman Methe ?

I strongly identify that I was raised as a woman (with all the sexism and prejudicial crap associated with it) all my life.

Everything from having to wear pretty dresses and keep them clean to being only able to do home economics instead of woodwork.

I only have experience of being raised female.

There are plenty of 'intact males' in women's prisons - they're called guards. I would question whether someone who has always felt female (since early childhood),lived adolescence presenting as a girl and following surgery at 18 is now taken by all including sexual partners as female has had exactly the same male privilege and experience in their upbringing as conventional men. And I'm not aware that 'intact males' are queuing up to work in refuges. It is important that refuges, rape crisis etc offer safe space but they do not always do so as things are to disabled, lesbian or BME women. I don't get why trans is such a threat and a problem.

I'm not a cis woman I am a person with female chromosomes, a woman. I wasn't raised as a woman I was raised as a person. If I had been born with male chromosomes I couldn't be a woman no matter how much I wanted to be.

All these labels piss me off. I was listening to some 'genderqueer' people on the radio yesterday and wondering why the fuck people are so keen to label themselves? Can't they just live their life in as fulfilling way as possible without trying to skew everyone else's view on biology.

Mary, did the womens' brains just have a picture of a dress and some makeup inside them?

It's problematic isn't it? I agree with others - all the research I've seen suggests minimal to zero sex differences in neurology, so what does it mean to "feel like a woman"?

I feel like a person, and what makes me a woman is my biology. So what does that mean for trans women?

And the whole "trans women are women" piece becomes problematic when 70-80% of trans women don't physically reassign, and so you have people with penises demanding access to women only space, and saying that discussing of biological issues affecting born women are trans exclusionary and that biology is irrelevant to being a woman.

I am truly disappointed that the Greens didn't listen to the concerns raised here last week and seem to be competing to see who can be the most politically correct (at the expense of biological women)

And that's where there's no difference, men are the biggest threat to all women and not only trans-women.

I also think the term trans-women is really helpful and doesn't need to be redefined as women. The trans-woman has faced different and dreadful discrimination and prejudice which is totally due to being trans, to say it's just against women takes away from the trans experience.

All the studies indicate is that more work needs to be done. The brain is the most complex object in the known universe, our understanding of it is in its infancy. The sample sizes were too small to make sweeping statements like "woman trapped in a man's body".

The biggest issue the trans community faces is violence at the hands of men. Yet somehow this fact seems to be lost in the sidelines against trendier questions of what to do about bathrooms, and a redefinition of the word woman.

Ok almond, fair enough. Night.

I think being a woman when it comes to feminism is people who have been brought up and socialised as women (as they have felt the experience of being raised in a patriarchal society).

This does not apply to females raised as males IMO. Not to detract from their experience in any way - it's just different.

There are also some 'males' who were defined as genitally ambiguous and who have been raised female.

I do not like trans-gender females identifying as females and claiming they want access to all female services and that they are entirely women and should be treated as such. Nor do I want intact 'males' in a female prison or being given employment in women's refuges (in the positions when you have to be female to work there).

In short I don't want people who have lived with all the privileges of being men admitted into all female areas because they are now identifying as being female. There are times when that again looks like an abuse of power.

3 of us! You're not getting away with that one Mary.

'Caution has to be taken but imagine how it would feel to be a woman with a womans mind but trapped in a male body. I did research on this a few years ago and at the time literally every single study had supported that a transwomans brain was structured like a ciswomans brain.'

Completely untrue. Researchers can't even tell which is a man's brain and a woman's brain from brain structures in the first place, before you bring trans people into it.

'So imagine if tomorrow you woke up with a male body etc, it would not make you a man because what5 is important is your mind and who you are not your physical appearance'

No, I'd be a man, and it would not bother me at all.

mary24go Can you direct me to the studies in question?

As far as I am aware, study after study has shown that there are no significant differences between male and female brains - therefore, of course male brains are structured like women's brains, whether they identify as trans or not.

"every single study had supported that a transwomans brain was structured like a ciswomans brain."

As Buffy said somewhere else, Mary : citations please? How exactly is a "ciswoman's" brain structured? Have you heard of neuroplasticity or even individuality?

Rootypig, the concept of gender is not mutable or fluid. It is contested.

I don't think your posts are very comprehensible. I think it might be easier for people to understand what your opinion is if you made claims about gender role, gender identity, gender expression or gender presentation. Just making claims about 'gender' without explaining which concept you are referring to makes your statements very difficult to follow.

I think many of us would be termed genderqueer (hence the puke) as the modern word has it, because we are women who don't all behave according to the fluffy pink stereotype! Just one more stupid term in this whole transgender mix-up. Along with cis and 'female penises'.

If transwomen have not undergone the complete surgery then they are still physically males. However much they feel they conform to female stereotypes inside.

"This is my issue with it too. It's not a neutral statement - to widen the traditionally understood definition of "woman" - it has impacts on people born biologically female that are real and significant. Overlooking or minimising that for the sake of being inclusive with terminology seems wrong to me."

Caution has to be taken but imagine how it would feel to be a woman with a womans mind but trapped in a male body. I did research on this a few years ago and at the time literally every single study had supported that a transwomans brain was structured like a ciswomans brain.

So imagine if tomorrow you woke up with a male body etc, it would not make you a man because what5 is important is your mind and who you are not your physical appearance.

Noe as i said i am all for caution but i am also for showing these people the sympathy and respect they deserve along with helping them find peace be it through surgery or other means.

It's nonsense isn't it.

My sexuality and gender role are neither mutable nor fluid.

Not for the individual, but the concept of gender itself.

Can you suggest what these qualifications might be?

No, because my experience doesn't prompt any, for me.

I just don't understand how a transwoman knows

I think all of the ideas here are problematic, because they are artefacts of the construct of gender itself. The law, too. It must simultaneously provide for those discriminated against on grounds of gender and permit discrimination on grounds of gender - e.g. access to services - while making room for new ideas of gender that contradict those embedded in the first two.

What are the bloody greeens playing at? Trying to appeal to the trendy modern genderqueer ('scuse me while I puke) 'youf' or have they just stopped being able to think??

Natalie Bennett said they were having a talk about this at a conference on Sunday, doesn't sound like it's done much good then.