I can't get my head around the phrase "Transwomen are women".

I don't tweet. Twitter is high on the list of things I have no interest in along with Facebook.

It wouldn't bother me if I were called that. I commented on the NAMALT thread on the inefficacy of lazy acronyms.

It's just like saying "political correctness gone mad" . Really means "I don't actually have an argument or the vocabulary to respond to what you're saying so I'm resorting to this"

personally, while being a 'biological woman' i have witnessed a good friend go through mtf transition.

i have to say, i think some people are trying too hard to hold onto gender identity and creating a 'thing' where there doesn't need to be one.

the 'fear' of some biowomen towards/about Transwomen is, in my eyes, akin to male homophobia, for whatever reason they feel threatened by them.

its bigotry.

i cannot and will never understand people who indulge in bigotry, i am what i am, a person, everyone is just a person, and they ought to be taken as they're found, whatever their x/y mixture.

"What's problematic about it ? Women have vaginas."

Succinctly put. Pretty sure you'd be called a TERF if you tweeted that, though.

*Jessica, there was a thread recently asking exactly that question and if I recall, the majority referenced biological features - mainly boobs and vag.

It's problematic*

What's problematic about it ? Women have vaginas.

If biology is unimportant in defining who is a woman, what do trans woman transition from and to?

Yes, sandor, exactly. It can be threatening.
Also, being female / a woman is biological. You wouldn't think 'I feel like I'm in the body of someone of a different race' would you?!

What seems to be forgotten is that women actually have really legitimate reasons for not wanting men/people with penises in those spaces.

Is it possible to 'feel female', in the same way you feel sad? Or does 'feel female' mean identifying with feelings, interests, or whatever, which have been traditional designated to (biological) women? I probably identify with traditionally masculine feelings and interests, but I've never felt male.

I strongly object to being called a 'cis' woman. I'm a woman!
In real life, the trans women I know are just quietly getting on with their lives. I'm happy to use whatever pronoun they feel comfortable with and they don't even suggest that I refer to myself as anything other than a woman. Online however, I've had TERF levied at me for daring to question the nature of gender and for saying that I wouldn't want to be in a changing room with a biological man.
Women fought for our own spaces. They are for US. They are not for people in possession of a cock and balls, though the liberal leftie menz who are trying to be so right on, are using this as an excuse to shout at women for not doing as we're told.

Jessica, there was a thread recently asking exactly that question and if I recall, the majority referenced biological features - mainly boobs and vag.

It's problematic.

TheFallenMadonna Absolutely and it could be seen as a set theory question.

The problem is that accepting that assumption seems (in the circles I move in) to be the de facto position, whereas the position that Ubik1 describes is often seen as transphobic.

As a not-terribly-feminine woman (although I look the part a lot of the time) I struggle with the concept of 'feeling female'. Maybe I would be more understanding (I would already say that in practice I am accepting) of transition if I could 'get' that more readily.

I am occasionally reminded on my sex / gender through sexism but I don't wake up in the morning and think 'gosh I feel like a woman'. I tend to wake up in the morning and think 'gosh I feel like a BuggersMuddle' that works on both levels btw, especially if the previous evening was a Wine Night

bollocks perhaps an unfortunate choice in this context

That's the problem isn't it? What does always 'felt' female actually mean? What feelings or thoughts are female or male? Does it mean my personality fitted better into the gender stereotype more commonly assigned to people of the other biological sex? The answer to that is that that's entirely possible because gender stereotypes are culturally/socially constructed, arbitrary bollocks. It doesn't mean you are the other biological sex it just demonstrates that 'gender' as it is constructed, is bollocks.

I wonder what would happen if you surveyed every woman and asked 'what makes you a woman?'. Tbh, my first answer would probably be 'my vagina'. Would that make me transphobic?

There are lots of situations in which we don't have words to describe women who aren't something. There is no word for women who are not mothers, not menopausal. I think that the phrase trans woman, where trans is used as adjective like tall, fat, infertile, married, single, has very different connotations to transwoman as a noun, which implies that every other grouping should have their own specific nouns.

I think transwomen are a subset of 'trans' alongside transmen.

Is that transphobic?

Well, that's the fundamental issue isn't it? Whether transwomen are a subset of the group women? Looking for a term to describe "non transwomen" stems from that assumption. If you don't accept that assumption, the need isn't there.

I really struggle with some of this.

TBH as a woman and a feminist, I think a lot of the current around what is a woman, a transwoman, a ciswoman etc. is a bloody great distraction.

There are so many important topics that can be looked at from a feminist perspective. The rights of a relatively small number of biological males who wish to be accepted as female is somewhat niche, but seems to be getting a disproportionate amount of attention at the moment.

Language is important, but at the moment far too much effort seems to be expended on semantics or what is / isn't cissexist.

I would also prefer not to be labelled 'cis' as an individual. I will label / refer to others as they so choose but that is some distance from holding a belief that a transwoman with a penis is a woman in the same way that I am.

Hermione, there are lots of discriminated against groups of people who don't have a word to describe the rest of society. I am not asked to have a label because I was never in care, never raped, not a Hindu and so on.

Women and transwomen aren't the same as people and disabled people though - people with disabilities and people without disabilities are all still people. Women and transwomen are different categories, they're not two categories within "women".

I wrote an article on the etymology of the word "woman" some time ago. I wouldn't like to do similar for "cis" or "trans", simply because I don't want to deal with any aggravation there might be, and I know that trolls have attacked other linguists who have tried to address these points.

I agree with you, Hermione - cis in relation to people is a nonsense!

Techgirl, can you say more about what feeling female means? How do you define the experience to 'feel female'?

I am uncomfortable with cis because it feels like it is being used to denote "less". As though my muddling through life as a not especially feminine woman means I am failing. Because real women are 100% feminine even if they are born men.

Yes Alex, but I get that trans people might not want to be "othered" in that way, and because I am willing to compromise on language to avoid hurting marginalised groups, I don't have a problem saying "trans" and "biological" women. I wouldn't talk about "disabled people" and "people". But "cis" is just a nonsense.

I've never heard of the term ciswoman before. You live & learn on Mumsnet. still don't see the need for the term ciswoman though