I can't get my head around the phrase "Transwomen are women".

This is pretty thought-provoking: transgenderreality.com/2015/04/09/the-catalog-of-her-interests-behaviors-and-clothing-choices-on-gender-stereotypes-in-stories-of-transgender-children/

So many parent who seem so eager to fit their children into stereotypical boxes. They think they are being open-minded but are the opposite.

No apocalypse. I wish we didnt have to. And also, I wish we weren't so full of self-doubt when we do. So careful to understand the other point of view

It is all smoke and mirrors Imo; gas lighting in the extreme

Is there some reason why women wouldn't be interested in discussing whether the meaning of what it is to be a woman is changing?

Another thread. These threads make me so sad. Another 13 pages of women agonising over their identities as women, because trans-women say they aren't women. And women desperately trying to understand whatever it is that trans-women understand about being a woman

Not sure if this has been linked already but I found it interesting goingradical.wordpress.com/2014/09/18/gender-critical-trans-women-yes-they-exist/

LadyBlaBlah wrote - "a blanket attack on all feminism really."

I agree.

LadyBlaBlah wrote - "rad feminists who are seen to be the ones oppressing trans women for not allowing them into toilets"

The laws governing who can and can't use a toilet are made and enforced by anti-radfem governments, not radical feminists.

Radical feminists do not want trans women, particularly those with penises, to use women's toilets. The reason radical feminists are objecting about this issue is precisely because their concerns have not yet influenced patriarchal legislators on this issue.

Oh I don't know Vesuvia. I've never even heard of mainstream feminism - I just see it as a blanket attack on all feminism really.

In these fb discussions it seems it's rad feminists who are seen to be the ones oppressing trans women for not allowing them into toilets, while good feminists are inclusive and allow penises in their changing rooms with hashtags of inclusion and intersectionality. It seems like there is a man pleasing element to being a good feminist, yet again.

LadyBlaBlah wrote - "mainstream feminists are more eager to allow men into the movement than they are about allowing trans women and WOC"

This is the first I've heard of this particular accusation against "mainstream" feminists. It seems to be a damning indictment of non-radical feminists (because radfems are not mainstream feminists).

Any idea who these mainstream feminists are, and which men they are eager to "allow" into the movement?

I believe Mary is a previously banned poster who has form for turning up on these threads and claiming that there are huge sex based brain differences and trans women have female brains. I suggest ignoring, and I have reported

I am so confused by all of this.

I have been called a bigot on fb recently and I'm pretty sure I'm not however maybe I am if I don't want people with penises (men) to be sharing changing rooms and toilets with me.

And I am genuinely surprised that many of the feminist pages I follow are calling for inclusion and sending out what I consider to be quite anti- feminist messages e.g. "mainstream feminists are more eager to allow men into the movement than they are about allowing trans women and WOC"

It seems feminism is being attacked A LOT at the moment over this issue. Another diversion tactic from the real perpetrators and kinda proves the point about (trans women) men taking over women's spaces.

Trans is a term that takes in a wide variety of people. It includes males who live as men at work, but cross dress to socialise in the evenings and at weekends.

Applesinmypocket your post further up was spot on.

I've not seen anyone say specifically that they are afraid they will be raped by a real trans* person.

What is a "real" trans person? By all accounts, the difference between a real trans person and a fake one is solely within the self-reported state of mind of the person in question. Christopher / Jessica Harmsworth is supposedly a fake trans person but since he has said nothing to contradict his earlier assertions of being a woman, why is he called a fake transwoman?

Agree, that may be the gym's policy, but I wouldn't be a member there

Our gender identity non-discrimination policy states that members and guests may use all gym facilities based on their sincere self-reported gender identity

Well I'm glad I don't have and won't ever have a gym membership. I'm not prepared to share changing facilities with a person with a penis.

I don't think it's just about fearing attacks from trans women in women only spaces, or that allowing anyone who feels like a woman to access women only spaces is clearly a risk, but what if you're at a rape crisis centre and there's someone there who was clearly born biologically male. She may or may not have had full surgery - you have no way of knowing short of asking, but why on earth should you be in a position of wondering whether your rape counsellor or rape centre volunteer does in fact have a penis? Just, WHY?

I just read that "jealousy" link - and my god, it's terrifying. So much hate for women. Not even hidden hate, but openly expressed hate.

www.unionleader.com/article/20150312/NEWS03/150319651

Of course, one interesting thing about MTF trans people is that they seem to get a "free pass" for the kinds of pasts and behaviors that actual women would be made non-entities for.

Could you imagine a biological woman with the kind of mental health history this MTF person has getting elected to public office anywhere? Yet people are supposed to conveniently dismiss any mental health problems of a trans person.

transgenderreality.com/2015/03/09/being-a-girl-is-like-playing-on-easy-mode-jealousy-of-women/

Many of these trans people truly believe WOMEN are the privileged sex, and that being a girl is much, much easier than being a boy. They seem, like Mary above, to have been educated badly in history and believe that women have sat around eating bonbons while the men have done the work of creating civilization. Many of them envy women, are consumed by jealous and angry thoughts when they see women.

And I'm supposed to be okay with these folks in the changing room? People who say they can be "triggered" by the very appearance of a female body, or who can fly into jealous rages or major depressive episodes when a woman has a body they wish they had? Christ, I think every woman alive has probably had a moment of "I wish I had her body" from time to time, but this all-consuming jealousy and obsession is limited to males who choose to transition to a female appearance.

I don't think women are being irrational when they say they're freaked out by MTF people. Many MTF people hold opinions about women that are utterly horrifying and UTTERLY male.

I think there's this general perception from people who aren't heavily embroiled in the trans/radfem debate that all trans women pass perfectly, have had surgery and are basically indistinguishable from cis women. This is reinforced by those trans women in the public eye - Paris Lees, Janet Mock, Laverne Cox - who pass perfectly and are very attractive.

It takes a fair bit of research to realise that this image doesn't actually represent all trans women - marfisa, have you seen the pictures that have been going round the internet of Carlotta Sklodowska (the Planet Fitness person)? If he (he does actually identify as he) said he was a woman, would you really take his word for it?

metro.co.uk/2015/03/08/woman-has-gym-membership-cancelled-after-complaining-about-transgender-woman-in-locker-room-5094097/

(Bearing in mind his creepy sexually explicit Facebook comments btw)

You don't need to look at his genitalia to know he's a bloke. Is he really "like us"? Because this is who we could be sharing bathrooms/prisons/dv shelters with.

We're "othering" people like Sklodowska to the extent that we're saying that they're men and men are "other" from women. Is that so unreasonable?

The whole point is that once anyone can stick a dress on and go into 'female spaces'.

The thing is, they don't even have to go to that much trouble - identifying as a woman no longer requires you to have any outward indication that you do.

And of course there's a lot of dispute as to who counts as a trans woman. If I was required to share intimate, enclosed space with "Carlotta", with his physique much stronger than mine, and his documented lack of respect for women's sexual boundaries, yes I would be frightened of assault. But I know trans women who are really quite angry that someone like "Carlotta" - who identifies as male, and who does not live as a woman in any meaningful sense - is apparently counted as trans.

I've not seen anyone say specifically that they are afraid they will be raped by a real trans* person.

No, true, but the thing is, as someone pointed out, trans women commit crime at the same rate as men, not as women. And there are enough documented instances of trans women committing rapes to make the fear of assault from either men or trans women a reasonable one. Do I think every trans woman is a rapist? Obviously not. Do I think all men are rapists? Obviously not. Most trans women just want a quiet life, like the rest of us. But being trans doesn't make you magically immune from committing assault.

Marfisa, I don't think the main issue is transwomen who identify full-time as women raping women in toilets - certainly not the ones I know who have dysmorphia and may be on hormones in any case.
For me, it's the fact that the accommodations expected from women are so broad they will make it impossible to prevent those men who have sexual perversions involving watching women in toilets, from doing so. You won't be able to challenge them in case they are trans (because you will be the one who gets thrown out/barred) and if a man with no other history of being trans is caught in the women's toilets all he will have to do is say he identifies as a woman. Suppose he's not dressed as a woman and doesn't live as a woman - not relevant, because this is about self-reported internal identification.

It's very naive to think these men don't exist - they're easy enough to find on the internet.

I had a very horrible experience once where a man spied on me in a unisex changing room, and this kind of thing is very very common and will become even more so in the absence of female-only toilets (ie if women's toilets means anyone can use them who is willing to say when challenged they identify as a woman).

There has to be an accommodation reached that works for both sides, rather than us having to go to the most extreme position that will put women at risk.

"Do people REALLY think that transwomen are likely to run round raping other women in toilets?"

Is this unintentional? Or are people willfully misinterpreting the concern?

I've not seen anyone say specifically that they are afraid they will be raped by a real trans person. The whole point is that once anyone can stick a dress on and go into 'female spaces'. They dont have to actually be trans, they could just be some rapist/murderer bloke in a dress, making the most of an opportunity