Consent, it's actually very simple

Partial, I don't think you are goady.

I think you are blinkered. I think you are cushioned.

You've been around MN and FWR long enough to know that many women on these boards have been raped or sexually assaulted, or both.

And you state "you have opinions (on consent, presumably) that need to be tested"

Do you see how it sounds?

Knickerful, thank you for your patience.

However I am certainly not trying to be in any way 'goady' if any of my previous posts have come across that way.

I have opinions that need to be tested, and that is what I feel this thread is doing. I apologise to the OP for the way I seem to have hi-jacked it.

I have two daughters whom I hope to bring up in a world of equal opportunity and expression.

Partial, FYI, I'm taking you in good faith here, but can you see why some aren't when you argue that consent has grey areas and when in other recent posts you've been flippant about sincere concerns?

I'm actually fighting my instinctive reaction to some of your posts as I hope you just aren't quite expressing what you mean.

Again, always remember women can't be disinterested observers. We haven't got that luxury.

scallopsrgreat Why wouldn't we partial?

You seem to want to trip me up on my posts, scallopsgreat.

That's probably not too hard in an intellectual debate.

Yes, that's a good guide generally including preventing a drunk friend from throwing up on her shoes by getting a bucket, or whatever.

I disagree with you about consent not being black and white. But really the issue is the socialisation that there's something more awful about missing out on a sexual opportunity than there is about having sex that one party later regrets or (and this is separate) feels they didn't give free and meaningful consent to.

As per your example, you stayed friends with the woman and so might have had sex at another moment if you both, freely and with capacity, wanted to. And if not with each other, well, no doubt another positive sexual opportunity would arise for you both down the line.

Why wouldn't we partial?

Both men or women make stupid decisions when drunk or stoned, and if you are more sober, you have a moral responsibility to be responsible

I would agree with this statement. Do others?

Yes, definitely agree with both your last posts. Got to go back to work, will try and come back later . . .

Sorry, x-post. I don't think being drunk is a red herring, really. Both men or women make stupid decisions when drunk or stoned, and if you are more sober, you have a moral responsibility to be responsible, IYKWIM.

That's a good summary, Buffy. But I think it is important (maybe not so much on the feminist board, but in general) to be clear that no-one says no when they mean maybe, male or female, and that it is just as much a girl's responsibility to walk away from a drunk boyfriend as vice versa.

(Obviously same is true of adults, but I have an about-to-be-teenage dd.)

None of this is new, either. I've walked away in my younger days when I realised that we were both too drunk to be making sensible decisions. Even though I might have been pretty sure that I wouldn't regret things in the morning, I couldn't know that random bloke X wouldn't. And I think that was accepted to be right behaviour even going back 25 years.

Ah I see, you were trying to challenge the black/white view on consent. So you think there's a grey area?

x-post! Serves me right for taking ages to compose a reply!

knickerful, I can't answer for partial, but that is one scenario which I have spent a lot of time figuring out too. Mostly because when I was younger (uni years) a drunk person and a sober person having sex was generally considered "shitty behaviour" rather than rape. So even once I'd grasped the "drunk consent is not consent" idea I started remembering those incidents (luckily not involving me) and trying to deal with my own guilt for not preventing rape.

I know it may appear that I am posting here in order to receive praise and the occasional pat on the head for walking away.

That wasn't what I intended.

I was trying to challenge the black/white view on consent. But I did it very badly with a personal experience.

Thing is, partial, examining your own behaviour and identifying the areas where you don't "smell of roses" is the most honest, feminist thing you can do. Even better if you then try to change your behaviour based on that.

Feminists (speaking generally here) don't expect men to be saints. We are all products of patriarchy and we've all had our behaviour and thinking influenced by it. The point of it all is to look back and see how that has happened to try to change it, which you are trying to do, it seems.

Ok, and feel free not to answer, but I'm just not clear why it's remained with you.

You clearly did the right thing, whether it would've been rape or not.

If you'd gone ahead and were looking back wondering if you made the right choice, I could understand that more readily.

But I'm not your priest or your conscience, so ignore if you wish.

A good question Knickerful, and probably not one I can answer satisfactorily.

I read the Feminist threads on a regular basis, and often try to measure up the opinions on these forums (or fora) against my own behavior. I do not always come out smelling of roses

So when I read this one about consent, I did wonder if it was as straightforward as the very well written article implied.

This in turn made me reflect upon some of my experiences, the one I related has remained with me a long time, as well as a few others that I have not related.

I hope that explains 'why', to some extent.

Partial, can I ask why it's been on your mind?

Thank you cailindana,I can seen that my OP was odd.

It's just something that has been with me for many years and that I wanted to open to MN.

Buffy, I agree with everything you say. And thank you for responding in a way that didn't find fault with me or scallop.