The greens and prostitutes

Agree that harm is done to prostitues of both sexes. I just think if you insisted on that you might make visible the way that people casually make arguments about legalising as long as no heterosexual man comes to any harm and/or is challenged about the harm of his sexuality

I hate the way it seems to be a 'female problem' rather than the fault being with the men.

Yes, but it doesn't matter what sex the prostitute is - the harm is still being done by the men. That is where we should be starting to make policies and using outreach workers - nothing will change the worst parts of the trade (violence) without them actively wanting to make it stop.

@lioninthesun
I've just read the comment from the person based in Amsterdam. By decriminalising prostitution on the Greens watch does that mean the UK cities will look like Amsterdam? It is disgusting there and It's hardly discreet is it, as you say domestic violence increases in areas where it is legalised and local view of women is skewed negatively.
It is also a concern that the prostitutes themselves need to be rehabilitated, given a chance to make something better of themselves, asked why they choose to put themselves in danger on a daily basis - not given a clean cubicle and DIY STD testing kits to get her 'business' up and running.
FFS I can't believe it is even being considered but as Outself pointed out any brothels should be an equally and evenly matched ratio of male and female prostitutes.

Good response lion - I'd add that one of the things that stops women from reporting abuse is that they don't want the fact that they're in prostitution to become publicly known. Legalisation makes no difference to stigma - men consider prostitutes to be sub-human either way, the law can't change that.

Sandor I said it would be like saying "well people will always be peado's, so let's legalise it" - I think his point is that the violence is still a crime but under legalisation it would be reported more easily. I said that Germany shows us this is not always the case - hotel owners can chuck out any woman who has 'caused problems' as they wish so as not to attract police attention. They seem to think they will be able to use legislation and tighter controls to stop this issue. I said men in power will always get around these as the business is adaptable and too much money to be made.

Just had a response:

"There's a chicken-and-egg problem when comparing violence rates with legalised prostitution; did they legalise it there because things were worse there, or are things worse there because of legalisation?"

It's nonsensical to tackle violence against women by simply making violence against women not a crime.

Thanks rosie Funnily enough now another guy who lives in Amsterdam has just posted this "Living near legalized prostitution I would have to agree with the greens. Criminalizing it does not make it go away. The problems the Dutch have with it are down to the moral right making it difficult to pass legislation, leading the windows to be owned by any number of scumbags, Girls here are monitored and protected at the very least. How many Rippers(Jack, Yorkshire, Suffolk) do we need to have before we realize that criminalizing makes the whole thing even more dangerous and making victims out of very vulnerable people?"
So I have answered both of them with this:
I don't want to criminalise it, but I think full legalisation is very dangerous and have cited Germany as a nearer example to why trafficking would increase and as an example of how much policing/legislation/money and social aid it would need. People are calling legalisation the New Zealand model, but NZ has far less of a problem with trafficking due to their global position and that they are not in the EU as well as having better immigration rules. I do completely understand street walkers are unsafe and that if we could somehow stop men wanting them to walk on the streets then they wouldn't do it. None of these problems are starting with the women, who on the whole want to be safe.

My second point is that men are not going to get better at seeing women as equals if it is legalised - it doesn't send a message that violence against women is wrong, it perpetuates the idea we are objects and the power balance is skewed from the off. Moving forward as a society that values equality, this seems very counter productive. That is where the problem lies and the more education and outreach workers we can get to help men understand this the better.

www.genderberg.com/phpNuke/modules.php?name=FAQ...
"All attempts to lessen the harms of prostitution have failed because men have not lessened their debasement of female sexuality and propensity to commit gendered violence in any significant way. There are plenty of medical records, police records and personal testimonies to substantiate men's violence towards females in places where prostitution has been legalized. Where prostitution thrives the value of women's lives is low and the gendered violence they suffer has not decreased. In fact, the legalized province of Victoria, Australia has both the country’s highest domestic violence rates and child prostitution rates."

Well I certainly don't want what happens in Germany to be brought to the UK. It is positively medieval, I am really not predisposed towards violence but I wanted to give that owner of the super brothel a slap. Especially at his reaction of horror to the question would he mind his daughters doing it.

I think we can define that particular setup as a failure, if for no other reason men seem to have ended up running it.

And I think that the only way that I could tolerate any kind of legalisation is that if prostitution were fully subject to the equalities act. EG, no punter at a licensed centre could insist on having a male or female partner 'totally focused on their pleasure' (I mean, if that is all it's about then there's no problem, right?). And no brothel could keep only women. And male job seekers were required to apply for jobs at brothels. Full equality, yes?

Wow, this has taken some catching up with.

I think I have rights against prostitution under liberal politics because men's desires for prostitution are themselves prejudiced. Every man who regards any woman as available for his consumption in this way degrades my claim to full personhood, irrespective of the harm or otherwise to the prostitute from whom he procures sex.

Which is not to say that I'm unconcerned about the actual harms to actual women that such transactions may involve. I just want to point out that there is an established, libitarean argument to the neolib position about the rights of individuals to conduct economic activity in this way.

I think we do as a culture need to address the idea that men can realise their masculine identity through sex.

I find the social interaction argument quite interesting but would say that having sex is more like making friends with someone than it is like giving a pedicure so regard it as a bizarre activity to conduct through financial rather than interpersonal structures.

Particularly this -

"All attempts to lessen the harms of prostitution have failed because men have not lessened their debasement of female sexuality and propensity to commit gendered violence in any significant way. There are plenty of medical records, police records and personal testimonies to substantiate men's violence towards females in places where prostitution has been legalized. Where prostitution thrives the value of women's lives is low and the gendered violence they suffer has not decreased. In fact, the legalized province of Victoria, Australia has both the country’s highest domestic violence rates and child prostitution rates."

Nope facebook dude, no deal. Maybe link him to this? www.genderberg.com/phpNuke/modules.php?name=FAQ&myfaq=yes&id_cat=2&categories=Prostitution+FAQ

He seems well meaning, but not very well informed.

it's all a bit pie in the sky and I've said it's a money pit that could tie the greens up for years but more likely they will move on to the next thing on the agenda after making a half arsed attempt. As I said I'm off out but thought I'd pick your brains again!

" I agree, they could be more detailed, but:

RR555 The Green Party recognises that, although people should be free to engage in sex work if they wish, this is an industry which can be more exploitative than others, and those who work in it should be adequately protected against such exploitation. There should be zero tolerance of coercion, violence, or sexual abuse (including child abuse). Those who have been trafficked into the country and forced to work in the sex industry against their will should receive protection under the law (see MG450-454). There should be legal support for sex workers who want to sue those who exploit their labour unfairly, and access to re-training for those sex workers who want to leave the industry. As far as possible, public services, the Government and legal system should aim to end those social attitudes which stigmatise those who are, or have been, sex workers.

RR557 The use of commercial premises as brothels should be legalised, and such brothels should be subject to licensing by local authorities to ensure protection of those working there and clients from abuse, and protection of the local community from nuisance and abuse. Some prostitutes choose to work from home, or similarly in residential premises, like some other trades. Such use of primarily residential premises should be permitted without a licence being required, subject to the avoidance of nuisance and abuse. This exemption from licensing requirements should still apply if more than one person works in such premises, provided that such activities take place on a sufficiently small scale that they are not tantamount to a commercial brothel.

The lack of regulation of German brothels, due to poor legislation is one of the key problems with its policy, and one which is specifically addressed in the second policy statement above."

" The "love hotel" problem can be solved with better legislation, for example by making the owner personally liable if people are selling sex in their establishment (and by actually enforcing the rules).

If trafficked women are able to safely report their situation, in the knowledge that their families at home aren't in danger, then you won't need to find them - they'll find you. The former part can easily be done by setting certain conditions to licensing (e.g. every woman is required to have regular, private, confidential contact with a social worker). The latter part would involve a large amount of international cooperation, but difficult doesn't mean impossible. Step one is getting everyone to admit that there is a huge problem, and that something needs doing about it other than "well we've banned it all, what more do you want?".

Regarding your assumed increase in the number of prostitutes, numbers can be part of license controls, which means the numbers won't necessarily go up. Again, this relies on good licensing terms, and strict enforcement, which are both absent in your examples."

"The sex industry in the UK is thought to be worth about £10 billion in the year 2009. Decide how you want to tax it, and that tells you the fraction of that money you'd have for enforcement, safety, trafficking-investigation task forces etc. That's assuming, as I said before, that you earmark all of the money raised to go back into helping the people who are harmed.

...That's a hell of a lot of money - no wonder Germany doesn't want to talk about changing it!"

Facebook not face!

I'm on my face talking to a man who wants to vote green and has been trying to convince me they would licence better than Germany and put all tax back into the industry to help those harmed. I'm off out but will post more later as he has cited green policy (which I've condemned as too vague)

The 'pussy club' in stuttgart story sounds quite harrowing, I thought Germany was quite pro workers rights etc though guess that doesn't extend to the sex trade industry.

Say in the UK would punters bizarrely then push for some sort of Of-Com government agency to register complaints of bad service.

@Florafox
Those articles are shocking, the one about the 'pussy club' in stuttgart that advertised discount on the opening weekend and 1700 men took advantage of it, with queues of men down the street complaining about unsatisfactory service as after a few hours as the women were not fit for purpose.

wtf did I just read - do I really live in a world such as this? I'm truly speechless and angry to the core after reading that.

Wow, such an enlightening an honest view from Kim, it has reinforced my view even more so that prostitution should not be decriminalised, i've been to Amsterdam and shudder to think what it would be like with dancers in windows, sex shows, porn and coffee shops with cannabis on every corner. Those are the two policies I strongly conflict with the green party.

However they represent a great left view in other issues and balance out Farages madness on the right. The fact the Greens now have more members than UKIP proves they should not be seen as a joke....

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/green-party/11453904/The-Green-Party-is-no-longer-a-joke.html

Thanks Kim,